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Author Topic: AmeriPol: 4 Green Berets die in Niger, and the situationbecoming Trumps Benghazi  (Read 271291 times)

Starver

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The tangent is the salient point. There's no reason why "violence for protection of trans people" deserves to be considered differently than "violence for the prevention of drug ODs" or "violence for the protection of animals" or "violence for the establishment of government based on the 10 Commandments"

Tashfeen Malik (one half of the 2015 San Bernadino couple, Pakistani), Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez (Chattanooga shootings, Kuwaiti by birth), the brothers Tsarnaev (Boston, 2013, them being Kyrgistani). They are the only ones responsible/part-responsible for 25 (non-perpetrator) deaths generously attributable since 2010 to non-US citizens, out of... *counts* ...111 total deaths in this period ascribable as "terrorism victims", and yet a whole Executive Order was signed to prevent this sort of thing (which targeted none of the origins listed above, but never mind!).

Why is an actually practical enforcement against actually proven crimes therefore not considered at least as worthy of the dealing with?  (Noting that, in the period examined above, an excess of forearms seems to be even more significant (105 of those deaths, if I've added them up right) than an excess of immigrants, but we all know that that won't roll...)
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Strife26

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The tangent is the salient point. There's no reason why "violence for protection of trans people" deserves to be considered differently than "violence for the prevention of drug ODs" or "violence for the protection of animals" or "violence for the establishment of government based on the 10 Commandments"

Tashfeen Malik (one half of the 2015 San Bernadino couple, Pakistani), Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez (Chattanooga shootings, Kuwaiti by birth), the brothers Tsarnaev (Boston, 2013, them being Kyrgistani). They are the only ones responsible/part-responsible for 25 (non-perpetrator) deaths generously attributable since 2010 to non-US citizens, out of... *counts* ...111 total deaths in this period ascribable as "terrorism victims", and yet a whole Executive Order was signed to prevent this sort of thing (which targeted none of the origins listed above, but never mind!).

Why is an actually practical enforcement against actually proven crimes therefore not considered at least as worthy of the dealing with?  (Noting that, in the period examined above, an excess of forearms seems to be even more significant (105 of those deaths, if I've added them up right) than an excess of immigrants, but we all know that that won't roll...)

Because the people don't elect representatives who consider and act as such.
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"But what is Government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no Government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on Government would be necessary. In framing a Government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the Government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
-James Madison

redwallzyl

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The tangent is the salient point. There's no reason why "violence for protection of trans people" deserves to be considered differently than "violence for the prevention of drug ODs" or "violence for the protection of animals" or "violence for the establishment of government based on the 10 Commandments"

Tashfeen Malik (one half of the 2015 San Bernadino couple, Pakistani), Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez (Chattanooga shootings, Kuwaiti by birth), the brothers Tsarnaev (Boston, 2013, them being Kyrgistani). They are the only ones responsible/part-responsible for 25 (non-perpetrator) deaths generously attributable since 2010 to non-US citizens, out of... *counts* ...111 total deaths in this period ascribable as "terrorism victims", and yet a whole Executive Order was signed to prevent this sort of thing (which targeted none of the origins listed above, but never mind!).

Why is an actually practical enforcement against actually proven crimes therefore not considered at least as worthy of the dealing with?  (Noting that, in the period examined above, an excess of forearms seems to be even more significant (105 of those deaths, if I've added them up right) than an excess of immigrants, but we all know that that won't roll...)
Truly, an excess of forearms is the greatest threat our great nation has ever faced.
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"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it."

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Strife26

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More precisely, because citizens who care about the issue haven't convinced their fellow citizens to vote in representatives who care by discussing and advertising the issue in the marketplace of ideas or by getting enough friends to show up to the tavern of ideas.
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"But what is Government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no Government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on Government would be necessary. In framing a Government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the Government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
-James Madison

Starver

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Truly, an excess of forearms is the greatest threat our great nation has ever faced.
Thus my slogan: "Make Amputees Great Again".

*phantomly facepalms*
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Strife26

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I think I'm going to extend the bar fight of ideas a bit more. I'll move it into the D&D Tavern of ideas, because I think it's a bit better thematically.

Within any political community, there exist two fundamental questions. How is the decision making structure designed and how that structure responds to problems. A system where the bartender gets to make all decisions and whenever the bartender dies there are rules of priority to decide the next bartender. Such a system is reasonable, but utterly dependent on an effective bartender who can make good decisions as well as control the rest of the clientele.

The American system, vastly simplified, has people voting for people to vote to make decisions (the Republican system of government), but those decisions are strictly checked and balanced by our own procedural rules, most critical of which is a procedure to change the procedure. Of specific note is the fact that representatives, once in office, are free to make decisions until they're up for reelection. Unexpected problems get dealt with by the people in office, generally speaking. However, it's easy to consider running for office on the basis of "The damn TV is going to be changed to the weather channel the second I get the remote"

As such, the political dialogue is centered around us patrons arguing amongst ourselves, partially about what's procedural acceptable, but mostly about what current representatives should be doing and about what features/ who the next representatives should be doing and possessing. There's a lot that's permissible in this dialogue. You can annoy your neighbor to some extent, you can shout, you can largely lie (although there's backlash when the truth finally gets its pants on), you can even agree to go into a party with that one really creepy dude who wants to play the Cranberries on the jukebox, as long as he agrees with you on the institution of happy hour. Remember, most people just want to drink their damn drink and not be bothered, so they're ripe for convincing by hook or by crook (and the line between those two things is very shaky). In some cases, you can even swing on someone, but that's certainly going to have repercussions (equivalent to nonviolent, illegal protest in the American system, but only to certain extends and established only by our social norms).

If it comes down to it, you can bet your bottom dollar that the preponderance of force in the bar isn't going to take lightly to aggression. Sucker punching someone might be survivable, but there's things that are beyond the pale in the tavern dialogue. You don't get to stab people, and you sure as hell don't burn down the bar.


At the end of the day, procedural and direct decision have to be made somehow, and tavern brawling isn't the worst, and with the number of people and factions and social norms of America, it's almost certainly the least bad. And if it isn't? Well, that's the fault of the people in the bar. Each and every one of us is complicit in the system. Tolerate it, participate in it, or try to change the system through the procedures in place, none of them require violence.
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"But what is Government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no Government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on Government would be necessary. In framing a Government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the Government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
-James Madison

SquatchHammer

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That's technically an action, not a speech... Well it was only a matter of time before I had to write another scene of utter and horrifying perversion.

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Baffler

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ANTIFA bike lock assaulter IDed and charges are being pressed and evidence submitted

It was vicious enough to qualify as assault, and it certainly wasn't self-defense. Maybe fining him or sending him to jail for a couple months will discourage the rest of the "fuck shit up, lol nazi scalps" types. Though I expect if it's only a fine they're just going to crowdsource it for great solidarity, and actions leading to personal consequences will remain a foreign experience.
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Quote from: Helgoland
Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
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smjjames

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@Strife: And the bartender is a level 100 paragon fighter druid-mage who will put you in your place if you attempt to accost them or steal the beer.

I misinterpreted the DnD tavern thing, nvm.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 09:19:33 pm by smjjames »
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Playergamer

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ANTIFA bike lock assaulter IDed and charges are being pressed and evidence submitted

It was vicious enough to qualify as assault, and it certainly wasn't self-defense. Maybe fining him or sending him to jail for a couple months will discourage the rest of the "fuck shit up, lol nazi scalps" types. Though I expect if it's only a fine they're just going to crowdsource it for great solidarity, and actions leading to personal consequences will remain a foreign experience.
"a couple of months"?

that's absolutely assault with a deadly weapon. If hitting someone with a goddamn wooden stick is ADW, then trying to cave someone's skull in with a steel bike lock without provocation is definitely assault with a deadly weapon. He'll get to spend a couple of years in state prison.

"What're you in for?"

"Hit a guy with a bike lock."

"Why?"

"He was offering someone a pepsi."
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Baffler

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"a couple of months"?

that's absolutely assault with a deadly weapon. If hitting someone with a goddamn wooden stick is ADW, then trying to cave someone's skull in with a steel bike lock without provocation is definitely assault with a deadly weapon. He'll get to spend a couple of years in state prison.

"What're you in for?"

"Hit a guy with a bike lock."

"Why?"

"He was offering someone a pepsi."

I don't know how the distinction is typically drawn, but that makes sense. The important bit though is that the guy is going through the legal system as one would expect for what he's done. You see these types going around talking about seriously injuring people, or doing things that would kill them seemingly thinking it will only injure them, or in a few cases just killing them, and they don't seem to realize that the state and society at large don't generally take kindly to organized violence.

An injection of reality is needed, and if the stereotype that these are mostly upper-middle class 20-25 year olds with no real sense of consequences and high on ideology is true, they'll probably be too yellow to back up their big talk when it seems like they'll get hit back - be it literally, or metaphorically by the legal system.
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Quote from: Helgoland
Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
Location subject to periodic change.
Baffler likes bismuth bronze, walnut trees, the color purple, chrysoberyl, and dogs for their loyalty. When possible he prefers to consume beef, black tea, and potatoes. He absolutely detests mosquitoes.

Strife26

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@Strife: And the bartender is a level 100 paragon fighter druid-mage who will put you in your place if you attempt to accost them or steal the beer.

I misinterpreted the DnD tavern thing, nvm.

It's not inaccurate, actually. The Federal Government has the monopoly on force. Average patrons could make a try of burning it down, but taking over and establishing a new order wouldn't likely happen.
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"But what is Government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no Government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on Government would be necessary. In framing a Government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the Government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
-James Madison

martinuzz

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ANTIFA bike lock assaulter IDed and charges are being pressed and evidence submitted

Please remove that video as it incites violence. It asks the viewers to punch antifa girls in the face.
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Playergamer

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ANTIFA bike lock assaulter IDed and charges are being pressed and evidence submitted

Please remove that video as it incites violence. It asks the viewers to punch antifa girls in the face.
Oh, c'mon. It's not like it's inciting violence against real people, they're communists. /s
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Max™

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So, despite Squidbillies informing me that Auburn sucks, I disagree, they defused a bunch of antifa kids by laughing at them.

https://twitter.com/TheSwogBlog/status/855252975455010817

"I like to drive in my truck. (He like's to drive in his truck!)
Auburn rocks. (Auburn rocks!)"

I get it kids, really, I want to lynch Trump and burn him in front of his family, but being bitchy antihipsters and getting in fights isn't helping anything.
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