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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1109981 times)

Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15615 on: December 05, 2017, 10:16:38 am »

Mueller has issued a subpoena to Deutsche Bank for details on its loans to Trump.

This is the sort of thing for which Trump has said he'd fire Mueller*, so we may have a Saturday Night Massacre-type firing spree occurring soon.

*not that he can directly, but he can run through Attorneys General until one is willing to fire Mueller for him.
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15617 on: December 05, 2017, 01:02:28 pm »

Gay Cakes.

I'm honestly having a hard time forming an opinion on this one. On the one hand, you can't force someone to work if they don't want to, that's basically slavery. On the other hand, can you imagine if a major chain of stores all put up signs on their front doors stating 'No Gays Allowed'? That kind of regulated bigotry in our businesses obviously can't be tolerated. But between these two extremes, where exactly is the line drawn, and how are infractions handled?

Maybe we should just ban all cakes from weddings so that nobody gets offended.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15618 on: December 05, 2017, 01:07:57 pm »

Businesses provide services to the public. They are the manner in which resources are largely distributed and are in that regard no different from state agencies who provide services. If businesses are allowed to selectively deny their services, parts of the public can be stripped of access to society, this is something we've already all agreed should probably not be allowed to happen.

If you make cakes, you have to offer them to everybody. If you don't make cakes, you don't have to offer them to anybody. Nobody has to take what you offer and nobody can force you to offer something that you don't offer to anybody. That's the line.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15619 on: December 05, 2017, 01:15:58 pm »

Gay Cakes.

I'm honestly having a hard time forming an opinion on this one. On the one hand, you can't force someone to work if they don't want to, that's basically slavery. On the other hand, can you imagine if a major chain of stores all put up signs on their front doors stating 'No Gays Allowed'? That kind of regulated bigotry in our businesses obviously can't be tolerated. But between these two extremes, where exactly is the line drawn, and how are infractions handled?

Maybe we should just ban all cakes from weddings so that nobody gets offended.

It's hardly forcing someone to work if they don't want to; nobody's saying the couple could just point to a random guy on the street and demand a cake. However, if you're going into business to provide a service to people, that service should not be contingent upon your opinion of their lifestyle. That's simply discrimination.

The argument from free speech is more robust, but it's not like the guy couldn't have just put up a disclaimer somewhere saying that his agreement to bake a cake for someone isn't an endorsement of their wedding; no reasonable person would think that anyway. I don't think my local mall hates gay people just because there's a Chick-Fil-A inside. Nor do I think Boeing is anti-American just because they built the VC-25 that currently hauls Trump around.

Selling products is not protected speech.
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Ispil

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15620 on: December 05, 2017, 01:24:21 pm »

My take on it is this: if you work in a profession of faith, then you should have the right to deny work over a matter of faith. Whether this particular cake shop's work is a profession of faith would need to be argued. This, at least to me, seems to be the cleanest way to cut this so that there's enough "religious freedom" workaround but with an onus on those denying service to prove that their profession actually meets the merits required to allow them such a purpose in the first place. Additionally, it shifts the matter from the individual employee to the employer.

I suppose if the above definition is laxed from "work in a profession to faith" to "requested to fulfill a contract that would constitute an act of faith or an act pertaining to the completion of an act of faith," then it would allow, say, a store from barring gay people from ordering wedding cakes for religious reasons but not cakes in general. Then it becomes a matter of demonstrating that the contract that was requested pertains to the completion of an act of faith (given the legal definition of marriage, this makes the cake matter murkier) and that said employer has a faith-based exclusion towards the completion of said act relative to the commissioner. Whether a wedding is an act of faith and whether the creation of a cake can be considered pertaining to the completion of said act of faith is a legal argument someone would have to make, but I'd be quite skeptical of it.

I'd personally stick with the first of the two definitions- that if your profession is that of which could be considered one of a religious matter, and you have been contracted to complete a contract that pertains to an act of faith as a matter of your religion, then you should have the right to refuse service as a matter of religion. So... whatever the hell contract you could contract a priest for, such that the contract pertains to an act of faith as far as the priest is concerned, they could refuse to fulfill it as a matter of their faith. Which would be... wedding a couple for which they disagree with the religion of the couple being wed? Begs the question as to why the hell they were even contracted for said purposes, but eh. Outside of that I don't really see this being applicable.

Funerals too, I guess. We're talking a pretty limited subset of things, here.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15621 on: December 05, 2017, 01:31:17 pm »

The problem with the "act of faith" thing is that what constitutes a profession of faith cannot be defined in a religiously neutral manner; if we allow that wedding cakes are an act of faith, then we're explicitly endorsing those faiths for whom weddings are a thing over, say, people who think that providing medical care or public transit or legal counsel is an act of faith. It would be trivially easy for someone to declare that they're, say, a "NotGonnaPlumbGaySinksologist" who believes that plumbing sinks is an act of faith, for example.
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Ispil

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15622 on: December 05, 2017, 01:35:31 pm »

Hence why I went with the first definition rather than the second. The second one just gets us into some seriously murky legal territory.
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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15623 on: December 05, 2017, 01:37:25 pm »

Businesses provide services to the public. They are the manner in which resources are largely distributed and are in that regard no different from state agencies who provide services. If businesses are allowed to selectively deny their services, parts of the public can be stripped of access to society, this is something we've already all agreed should probably not be allowed to happen.

If you make cakes, you have to offer them to everybody. If you don't make cakes, you don't have to offer them to anybody. Nobody has to take what you offer and nobody can force you to offer something that you don't offer to anybody. That's the line.
It's not completely cut and dry, because there are valid reasons to deny service.  Lack of shirt is a popular one, but even just "causing a scene" or "disturbing other customers" (not sure how those work legally, but it's clearly a thing).

Those reasons aren't the same as skin color, gender, sexuality, or other things people can't choose.

The obvious problem is that it's easy to find a valid excuse to refuse service.  The cake incident wasn't about that cake, it was about setting a legal precedent about whether such discrimination ought to be legal or not.  Which does matter, even if smart discriminators will work around it.  The legal status affects public perception, un-normalizes the behavior.  And the kind of people willing to put discrimination before profit often take too much pride to hide it.

Even if the baker claims to be out of sugar or whatever, it's at least a step forward from "No, because your love is fake, sinner."  It's easier to discriminate when you can do it casually and openly, otherwise it might start feeling wrong or something.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15624 on: December 05, 2017, 02:10:31 pm »

We know where this ends. It ends with the evangelical bigots closing ranks in their own small towns, refusing service to people who "endorse sinful behavior" by serving gay couples or divorcees or single women or nonwhite people or whatever they want to claim, and making it impossible for anyone not exactly like them to live there or do business there, let alone own anything. Then, years later, they turn around and claim they're a persecuted minority in need of legal protection since there are no good jobs available in their compounds.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 02:13:04 pm by Trekkin »
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15625 on: December 05, 2017, 03:33:43 pm »

The White House has weighed in. Trump is officially against gay cakes.
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15626 on: December 05, 2017, 03:34:02 pm »

We know where this ends. It ends with the evangelical bigots closing ranks in their own small towns, refusing service to people who "endorse sinful behavior" by serving gay couples or divorcees or single women or nonwhite people or whatever they want to claim, and making it impossible for anyone not exactly like them to live there or do business there, let alone own anything. Then, years later, they turn around and claim they're a persecuted minority in need of legal protection since there are no good jobs available in their compounds.

I completley agree.

You wouldn't minf me adding this to my sigs list would you?

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15627 on: December 05, 2017, 03:51:20 pm »

We know where this ends. It ends with the evangelical bigots closing ranks in their own small towns, refusing service to people who "endorse sinful behavior" by serving gay couples or divorcees or single women or nonwhite people or whatever they want to claim, and making it impossible for anyone not exactly like them to live there or do business there, let alone own anything. Then, years later, they turn around and claim they're a persecuted minority in need of legal protection since there are no good jobs available in their compounds.

I completley agree.

You wouldn't minf me adding this to my sigs list would you?

What will really bake your noodle is that if you replace "evangelical bigots" with "gay agenda" and "gay couples/divorcees/single women" with "Christians/whites/traditional morals" you get the alt-right's exact rhetoric.

QUICK EDIT: Tonight I'm going to sit at my computer with my bible on the shelf, hop on Conan Exiles with my openly bi best friend, my straight atheist best friend, and maybe his openly gay brother, and wonder why both of the most vocal halves of our country are hell bent on literally destroying each other because they believe something different.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 03:55:00 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15628 on: December 05, 2017, 04:03:29 pm »

We know where this ends. It ends with the gay agenda closing ranks in their own small towns, refusing service to people who "endorse sinfuldiscriminitory behavior" by not serving white moral christians whatever they want to claim, and making it impossible for anyone not exactly like them to live there or do business there, let alone own anything. Then, years later, they turn around and claim they're a persecuted minority in need of legal protection since there are no good jobs available in their compounds.

I completley agree.

You wouldn't minf me adding this to my sigs list would you?

What will really bake your noodle is that if you replace "evangelical bigots" with "gay agenda" and "gay couples/divorcees/single women" with "Christians/whites/traditional morals" you get the alt-right's exact rhetoric.

QUICK EDIT: Tonight I'm going to sit at my computer with my bible on the shelf, hop on Conan Exiles with my openly bi best friend, my straight atheist best friend, and maybe his openly gay brother, and wonder why both of the most vocal halves of our country are hell bent on literally destroying each other because they believe something different.

Darn now thats quote worthy as well!

IDK why my some of my countrymen are so flipping insane and are institutions are so broken, well I mean I gather the latter stems from the formal but I have a sinking feeling that even studying american history wont make it make more sense but rather only reveal that we are *slightly* less insane now.

EDIT: made the suggested edits and it almost works, god its like getting teams of typewriting mokeys and grabbing the worst propaganda they can get before giving it to both parties leaders as though its pure truth, right?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 04:08:50 pm by Paxiecrunchle »
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol: Senate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15629 on: December 05, 2017, 04:04:07 pm »

QUICK EDIT: Tonight I'm going to sit at my computer with my bible on the shelf, hop on Conan Exiles with my openly bi best friend, my straight atheist best friend, and maybe his openly gay brother, and wonder why both of the most vocal halves of our country are hell bent on literally destroying each other because they believe something different.
While roleplaying as a pagan barbarian.
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