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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1080733 times)

Gizogin

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17895 on: February 23, 2018, 02:24:49 pm »

I think Jim Wright put it best: You'd be asking teachers to be trained and prepared to gun down not just kids, but kids that they know, potentially in cold blood. And that's some darker than black operations shit that we don't even train soldiers for, much less underpaid educators.

Thank you. I think any other objection to arming teachers pales in comparison to this. It was along these lines that I had asked earlier if anyone had any statistics on how many shooters are students of the schools they attack.

If the proportion is as high as I suspect, then the only way teachers could be expected to actually take down a shooter before they can do any harm would be for them to train to kill their own students. Iím sure that such an attitude is conducive to a positive learning environment.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17896 on: February 23, 2018, 02:35:56 pm »

How do you make the gun safe or whatever you use work so a teacher can get into it quickly and easily but a student can't figure it out given enough time? Say, 3-4 years worth of time?

Lock it with Amazon Echo.

Folly

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17897 on: February 23, 2018, 03:55:01 pm »

It almost seems like the best way to reduce the number of shootings might somehow involve giving people fewer things to shoot with. I donít know; maybe Iím just crazy.

That's a lot like saying 'you don't fight fire with fire, you douse it with water'. On a small scale, yes, water or other inflammatory agents are the best way to extinguish a fire. But once a fire grows large enough, it literally becomes impractical to apply inflammatory agents faster than the rate at which the fire is growing. Beyond that threshold, the much more efficient method becomes the use of accelerant around the existing fire to quickly burn away potential fuel, so that the fire has nowhere to spread.

Guns in America are already so proliferant that it would be impossible to take away a significant portion of them without instigating violent response from second-amendment activists. And of course the lawmakers would have to be convinced first, which simply is not going to happen due to the corruption created by the NRA's deep pockets. Even limiting the availability of new high-powered guns and modifications is extremely impractical.

So, with consideration for the fact that removing guns is simply not going to happen, the only remaining practical option is to fight fire with fire.
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Zangi

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17898 on: February 23, 2018, 03:55:50 pm »

So apparently there was an armed cop at the school, and he stood outside for 4 minutes and did nothing.
The cop has been sent with forced retirement now.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/schoolagent-bleef-buiten-wachten-tijdens-bloedbad-in-florida~a4572973/
Way I see this... probably someone who realized at that very moment that they are not actually up to going in, alone, to face off against the shooter. 

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Police training ain't about being heroes either, rather coming back home alive at the end of the day.
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17899 on: February 23, 2018, 03:59:18 pm »

I mean you realize the potential fuel you are talking about are schoolchildren, right.
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17900 on: February 23, 2018, 04:00:18 pm »

So apparently there was an armed cop at the school, and he stood outside for 4 minutes and did nothing.
The cop has been sent with forced retirement now.


The way I heard it reported, the cop was suspended pending further investigation, then he voluntarily entered early retirement.

Regardless, I'm not about to judge anyone for choosing not to bring a handgun to an AR fight.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17901 on: February 23, 2018, 04:06:55 pm »

Regardless, I'm not about to judge anyone for choosing not to bring a handgun to an AR fight.
I wouldn't judge them either, unless it happened to be their exact job which they have trained for, and that furthermore there are children that are part of the AR fight. There have been plenty of people who tried to overcome the attackers (and sometimes succeeded) while completely unarmed. Even if he wasn't going to join the actual fighting, he could've at least helped people evacuate.
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17902 on: February 23, 2018, 04:09:11 pm »

Regardless, I'm not about to judge anyone for choosing not to bring a handgun to an AR fight.
I wouldn't judge them either, unless it happened to be their exact job which they have trained for, and that furthermore there are children that are part of the AR fight. There have been plenty of people who tried to overcome the attackers (and sometimes succeeded) while completely unarmed. Even if he wasn't going to join the actual fighting, he could've at least helped people evacuate.
Yeah. I assumed that they had just gotten some kids in a classroom and barricaded. The standing outside thing does seem to reflect panic. I have to wonder though- what the hell would most people do in his place? I take some of the blame off at that thought.

Right wing commentators are blasting the dude though. Perfect anti-gun control scapegoat for them.
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In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17903 on: February 23, 2018, 04:15:59 pm »

I mean you realize the potential fuel you are talking about are schoolchildren, right.
uh, possibly more importantly than than that people aren't actually fires and do not operate under the same mechanisms as a wildfire, never mind we currently by and large can't even manage the research to find out if methods other than "accelerant" are still viable thanks to the country's goddamn conservative politicians

... also the "fire", if you really want to call proliferation that, is an increasingly small minority of the population, so... I'unno. I guess murdering gun collectors and shop owners and whatnot and melting down their stock is a thing you could do, but somehow I can't help but think it'd be of a degree of use somewhere in the same ballpark as arming teachers.

Regardless, I'm not about to judge anyone for choosing not to bring a handgun to an AR fight.
I wouldn't judge them either, unless it happened to be their exact job which they have trained for, and that furthermore there are children that are part of the AR fight. There have been plenty of people who tried to overcome the attackers (and sometimes succeeded) while completely unarmed. Even if he wasn't going to join the actual fighting, he could've at least helped people evacuate.
I mean... my question is if he actually was trained for it. Iirc the guy was a school resource officer in his fifties, not someone in... whatever the hell unit handles situations like that. Swat or something, probably. If his training included prep for a mass shooting event involving shit like an AR-15 to begin with, the chances of said training being worth a shit are pretty small.

It's certainly not his job, though. Courts established there's no duty to protect individuals a long ways back, and if the suspect was arrested his "job" was more or less done.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17904 on: February 23, 2018, 04:45:24 pm »

Right wing commentators are blasting the dude though. Perfect anti-gun control scapegoat for them.

Personally, I think it's the perfect example of why their "good guy with a gun" argument doesn't work. Unless you man all the schools with literal Rambo. Real people don't perform like in the movies, because unlike the killer, they aren't insane.

Also, it's hypocritical for someone like e.g. Dinesh D'Souza to slam the guy for not going in like John McClane. In real life D'Souza would be shitting himself, and using African-American babies as human shields to save his own life.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 04:52:06 pm by Reelya »
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17905 on: February 23, 2018, 04:46:06 pm »

<snip>

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17906 on: February 23, 2018, 06:28:59 pm »

I think Jim Wright put it best: You'd be asking teachers to be trained and prepared to gun down not just kids, but kids that they know, potentially in cold blood. And that's some darker than black operations shit that we don't even train soldiers for, much less underpaid educators.

You can't "just shoot someone", even someone dangerous, on the drop of a hat. Modern military training (and unfortunately, police training) focuses on turning the action into a reflex, and the reason they do that is because people often will consciously or unconsciously "delope" and miss by a mile due to their ingrained inhibition against killing. People do this even in the heat of combat, in a war, fighting an enemy army that is trying to kill them. To suggest that this wouldn't be an overriding factor in getting teachers to gun down their own students is positively...Trumpian, I guess.

Personally, I think the pound for pound best thing we could do is improve conditions in schools to be more humane. That I think using the word "humane" in particular for school conditions is right says it all. The banality and daily frustration of the environment is more a contributing factor to shootings, and all other forms of school violence, than most people are talking about.

Since you mention training, that would probably involve teachers learning to behave like police do with firearms, also.  Where they have to consider anyone who tries to come within arms reach of them a potential threat, because their weapon could be taken off them.  Now teachers can't even offer warmth to their students.  If a student is emotional for some reason and wants a hug, they could be unstable and making a play for the weapon on your hip.  No, Timmy don't come fucking near me or I'll shoot.  Stay 15 ft away and tell me about it.  No high-fiving a line of students as they walk past into the classroom.  One could easily turn around as soon as they walk past and reach for your belt while you're distracted by the next high-five.  Kids don't even have to try to sneak guns into school.  They're already there.  All they need is a clever move.
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17907 on: February 23, 2018, 07:09:33 pm »

I think Jim Wright put it best: You'd be asking teachers to be trained and prepared to gun down not just kids, but kids that they know, potentially in cold blood. And that's some darker than black operations shit that we don't even train soldiers for, much less underpaid educators.
(Bearing in mind that this story is still unfolding, so who knows if I'm defaming the guy on top of Trump's own condemnation ...) Apparently you can't even rely upon a sworn-in law-enforcement operative to be prepared to go into action, either, so please allow me to add to the doubts.

edit:
Right wing commentators are blasting the dude though. Perfect anti-gun control scapegoat for them.
Not exactly "good guy with a gun" posterchild, either, him not being a John McClane.

edit2: Darn, very much ninjaed by Reelya.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 07:15:18 pm by Starver »
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Baffler

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17908 on: February 23, 2018, 08:11:29 pm »

Regardless, I'm not about to judge anyone for choosing not to bring a handgun to an AR fight.
I wouldn't judge them either, unless it happened to be their exact job which they have trained for, and that furthermore there are children that are part of the AR fight. There have been plenty of people who tried to overcome the attackers (and sometimes succeeded) while completely unarmed. Even if he wasn't going to join the actual fighting, he could've at least helped people evacuate.
Yeah. I assumed that they had just gotten some kids in a classroom and barricaded. The standing outside thing does seem to reflect panic. I have to wonder though- what the hell would most people do in his place? I take some of the blame off at that thought.

Right wing commentators are blasting the dude though. Perfect anti-gun control scapegoat for them.

Most of the right-leaning commentators I follow are basically saying of him "lol and libs think the government will protect them." Which I have to say, even from my own quite right-leaning position, is almost impressively far off from the point. Those saying he just froze up, and that it just happens sometimes because he (like most people) isn't Rambo have more of a point I think. The only difference in the two sides there is the difference between "...and therefore as a single incident this should not be used to disenfranchise large numbers of people" and "...and therefore security officers have been proven inadequate, we must disenfranchise the people for their own protection." And so it becomes a value judgement.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 08:19:09 pm by Baffler »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17909 on: February 23, 2018, 09:03:09 pm »

... pretty sure there's more than that difference going on. Most of what I've been seeing on the sanity side of things have been more pointing out that if a police officer isn't going to cut it, how the blazes is a school teacher? It's only a value judgement inasmuch as it's pointing out the value of propositions to being firearms into the classroom is unlikely to be high (well, freakishly unlikely and far more likely to make many things worse, but whatever).

The reasons for rolling back the interpretation of the 2nd to the early 1990s or thereabouts hinge on a lot of other stuff, that the guy (and also a few other officers, apparently, if the news I've noticed is anything to go by) reacted as he did is more a highlight on one of the myriad reasons arming teachers is something charitably described as fuckstupid.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:05:12 pm by Frumple »
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