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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1250144 times)

Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17925 on: February 24, 2018, 03:23:18 am »

Bullets don't block bullets very effectively, they just add more bullets to the air. This is why I suggest we arm every teacher with automatic point-defense lasers.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17926 on: February 24, 2018, 03:33:18 am »

The idea is the same absurdity behind "MASSIVE AWARDS FOR COPYRIGHT CASES!"-- Eg, "If you make it scary enough, people wont do it!"

(It doesnt work. In either case. Once people are desperate enough, they stop having aversion to perceptions of harm, and even seek the harm, hoping for a final resolution to their problems.)

But, I do also feel that I need to point out the double standards that are in play here, especially RE: Armed security guard does not shoot armed student.


Let's put that into perspective;  The armed security guard has a gun, yes.  He is downright told not to shoot students, because if he is wrong, and that is just a very well made water pistol or something, he just shot an innocent child, and all hell will break loose.

With that in mind, How the fuck is giving teachers guns, going to fix this problem?  Are the teachers expected to shoot students?  No? Then what the fuck will this accomplish anyway?
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17927 on: February 24, 2018, 04:00:05 am »

They're trying to apply MAD doctrine to guns, that's what. Trump is somehow convinced that a well trained teacher with a gun would absolutely have stopped the shooter. This whole misconception needs to be disproved with prejudice.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17928 on: February 24, 2018, 04:17:19 am »

I am pretty sure I just torpedoed that hard in like, the second sentence above.

See also "Suicide by Cop."

EG, by the time a child has been mentally tortured to the point that they are ready to commit mass murder in an institution that they feel they cannot escape from, they are already ready to commit suicide by cop.

That is to say, putting EVEN MOAR guns into the picture will not be positive. 
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MorleyDev

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17929 on: February 24, 2018, 05:26:36 am »

Seriously, Conservative America. We need to talk. Because this? This isn't healthy. This is the attitude of a drug addict, of an alcoholic.

"I have a hangover, so I just need to a stiff drink to get rid of it".

"We have a problem with guns at schools, so we need more guns at schools".

It's the literal definition of a downward spiral, and you need to get help. Because it's just going to hurt you, and a lot more people with it.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17930 on: February 24, 2018, 09:22:52 am »

It's kind of strange - schools are already "gun free" zones.  And yet gun violence happens in schools.  You can't declare schools to be more "gun free" than they already are.  And it is practically impossible to ensure that no guns are within X distance of a school anyway. Metal detectors and the like are easily circumvented, etc.

So the idea that having a first-responder at as close proximity as possible to a risk area makes some kind of practical sense.  Personally I wouldn't try to train teachers to be security as well - I'd probably try to have something more like the model of air marshal.

But as I've said before, the better solution is to address the social malaise that fosters such violent behavior in the first place. I'm with @wierd here - by the time someone has decided to obtain a weapon it's already way too late (these are not 'crimes of passion' people - these are deliberate planned events).
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17931 on: February 24, 2018, 09:40:42 am »

THe anti-NRA campaign #boycottNRA is starting to pay off.
More and more US companies are telling NRA to fuck off, by cancelling the spcial offers NRA members could get with their NRA membership card.
Enterprise, Hertz, Avis and TrueCar will no longer give discount on their car rental to NRA members.
The First National Bank of Omaha made it known that they will  end their 'Official Credit Card of the NRA', with which NRA members could get 5% yearly refund on their petrol and sportsgear purchases.
Symantec also scrapped it's discount offers for NRA members. Members could get discounts up to 110 dollars on Norton Antivirus and other products.

Insurance company Metlife also scrapped it's discounts for NRA members, and more importantly, Chubb put an end to the 'NRA Carry Guard', which was an insurance which pays legal costs for people that shot someone. The other insurance company that offers the Carry Guard, Lockton, did not stop providing it yet.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17932 on: February 24, 2018, 10:02:19 am »

I think it's unwise to cripple the NRA unless you're going to replace it with some other organization that takes the stance of "if you're going to own a gun, be responsible about it".
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17933 on: February 24, 2018, 10:03:13 am »

I think it's unwise to cripple the NRA unless you're going to replace it with some other organization that takes the stance of "if you're going to own a gun, be responsible about it".
I assume you are joking
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17934 on: February 24, 2018, 10:07:08 am »

Acknowledging that turning the screws tighter to obtain "compliance" causes people to suffer mental issues from "zero tolerance" based policies goes against the theory that increased authoritarianism is a valid solution, and that is not something that authoritarians want to hear.

You see, children "acting out" (eg, refusing to conform to the imposed 'order', et al) is not considered symptomatic of an underlying failure of that system or the 'order' it seeks to impose; (Like it SHOULD be)-- but instead as "The dreaded thing" that must be stamped out viciously. Never mind that petty authoritarians are attracted like flies to shit to small (and therefor, seemingly meaningless) positions of authority, where they can rule their imaginary kingdoms. (See for instance, the local serial killer from my area, Dennis Raider, AKA-- "B.T.K."--- Guy attempted to be a police officer, but could not make the cut, due to his petty authoritarianism being so pronounced; instead gravitated to being a church official, and a dog catcher-- positions he used to torment other people to satisfy his authoritarian streak. His inability to climb to higher positions of power were partly the fuel for his homocides; He had a deeply seated need to feel superior to other people-- to be "In control", "In charge".) Do I think *ALL* school systems have these kinds of people running them? What-- are you stupid or something? No-- But enough of them are in that system that there are *REAL* problems in it, and groups like the teachers unions dont help matters any in this respect.

To solve the problems with school violence in the US, a very radical change to the WAY schools handle and approach violence must be taken.  Specifically, that zero tolerance shit needs to be deep six'd with prejudice, There need to be psych evals of school administrators and teachers at regular intervals, and above all-- god damn it, when a student withdraws from their peers, becomes insular and isolated--- FUCKING ACT ON IT, INSTEAD OF IGNORING IT.  Yes-- Even if that means suspending the popular girls, and the rich kids (should they be involved in causing the problem.)

Other things that can greatly improve the situation:

Allow parents a better set of options to send their child to a different district in cases of mental health breakdown from toxic peer environments. Just because it is logistically "difficult" to enable that, does not justify making kids into killers for the convenience of politicians. If a child needs to change venues, CHANGE THE DAMN VENUE, AND DONT COMPLAIN. (And yes, if that exposes your school as a place where children are routinely victimized, guess what bitches? ENJOY THE INVESTIGATION! There is a difference between "Low income" and "Likely to cause lasting mental harm to children".  One can be the former, and NOT be the latter. Enabling children to have a legitimate means of escaping an abusive environment, where currently they are forced to endure in some twisted fuck's private little hell for them due to quirks in the legal system, would go a LONG way toward alleviating this kind of extreme response, since it allows the problem to be sorted before it reaches critical levels like that. Lame excuses about how "parents would seek out counselors to declare their child mentally harmed by low income school systems en-mass" are histrionic bullshit, and I wont accept that line of argument without some actual data.)

Stop allowing the teacher unions to protect harmful teachers (via the psych eval process, to clinically evaluate teacher mental health, and should they be found unfit, provide appropriate mental health services for the teachers. Naturally this will require a completely neutral evaluation service. Ideally with a random rotation.), because "Compassion fatigue" is totally a thing, and teachers are NOT immune. This is not the same thing as demanding the dissolution of teacher's unions-- (they are a necessary evil)-- but they cannot be unchecked either, because that is how you have pedophile teachers that stay in the system for decades, due to the insane paperwork that must be done to fire a teacher.  This is ESPECIALLY true with the absurd classload burdens imposed on US teachers.

Which brings us to--

Smaller class sizes, more, smaller school buildings, more spread out. At the worst, this will mitigate the number of casualties because there will be fewer students to be shot by single crazed students. Impose actually sane limits on the size a school building can be, and tell cities to suck it up buttercup, and provide appropriate zoning or lose federal funding.

I have other remedial suggestions, but they are equally unpalatable politically.










 

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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17935 on: February 24, 2018, 10:10:37 am »

It's kind of strange - schools are already "gun free" zones.  And yet gun violence happens in schools.  You can't declare schools to be more "gun free" than they already are.  And it is practically impossible to ensure that no guns are within X distance of a school anyway. Metal detectors and the like are easily circumvented, etc.

So the idea that having a first-responder at as close proximity as possible to a risk area makes some kind of practical sense.  Personally I wouldn't try to train teachers to be security as well - I'd probably try to have something more like the model of air marshal.

But as I've said before, the better solution is to address the social malaise that fosters such violent behavior in the first place. I'm with @wierd here - by the time someone has decided to obtain a weapon it's already way too late (these are not 'crimes of passion' people - these are deliberate planned events).

Speaking of the air-marshal type stuff, there's apparently a program in Texas that works on the same idea as air-marshals. I have no idea of it's actual effectiveness and it's Texas.

THe anti-NRA campaign #boycottNRA is starting to pay off.
More and more US companies are telling NRA to fuck off, by cancelling the spcial offers NRA members could get with their NRA membership card.
Enterprise, Hertz, Avis and TrueCar will no longer give discount on their car rental to NRA members.
The First National Bank of Omaha made it known that they will  end their 'Official Credit Card of the NRA', with which NRA members could get 5% yearly refund on their petrol and sportsgear purchases.
Symantec also scrapped it's discount offers for NRA members. Members could get discounts up to 110 dollars on Norton Antivirus and other products.

Insurance company Metlife also scrapped it's discounts for NRA members, and more importantly, Chubb put an end to the 'NRA Carry Guard', which was an insurance which pays legal costs for people that shot someone. The other insurance company that offers the Carry Guard, Lockton, did not stop providing it yet.


Now Delta Airlines has dropped their NRA discount.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17936 on: February 24, 2018, 10:13:33 am »

NRA's been needing to be screwed over for a while now, really. Maybe the ball keeps rolling and we end up with an organization that actually gives a damn about responsible gun use, as opposed to seeing how far they can deep throat the firearm industry. Probably wouldn't be the NRA itself, but that'd probably be for the better at this point.
But as I've said before, the better solution is to address the social malaise that fosters such violent behavior in the first place. I'm with @wierd here - by the time someone has decided to obtain a weapon it's already way too late (these are not 'crimes of passion' people - these are deliberate planned events).
except even as gimped as firearm studies are we already know slowing purchases and whatnot has a depressing effect on firearm violence. If someone that's decided to obtain a weapon has to wait another X days before getting, that's another X days that something might happen to change their mind or physically prevent them from doing it, and so on, and so forth. Then there's the flat, should be freakishly stupidly obvious, fact that having fewer firearms in circulation reduces incidents of harm related to firearm usage.

... though in cases like this, you might also have decent luck if you pulled the GOP's arm out the FBI and ATF's asses when it comes to firearm tracking. Imagine for a second how brain-dead obvious it is these days to set up a system that automatically crosschecks and flags for extra followup various warning signs and tips sent in with firearm ownership, purchase, or attempted purchase, and then realize the bloody "firearm advocates" in this country have persistently bodyblocked the possibility of making one.

Never mind the same bastards screeching about an interpretation of the 2nd that's had teeth for less time than I've been alive also constantly try to fuck over any and every effort to address that vague "social malaise" mentioned. Also most actual efforts to address those tend to either encourage or not discourage y'know, having fewer extremely deadly weapons in society. 'Cause seriously, the paranoia and mindset inculcated by firearm use as anything except play and maybe hunting is pretty toxic to a healthy community, go figure.

Basically, better or not gun control is still pretty good for getting this crap to slow the hell down, and we can damn well run it concurrently with efforts outside trying to screw over the bastards that are doing their damnedest to see more americans killed and that goddamn onion article published again.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17937 on: February 24, 2018, 10:23:30 am »

As somebody who has lived in more rural (eg, "economically and politically disregarded") areas, where preferred means of safety are not realistically possible (Really, when it takes over an HOUR for a cop to show up after you call 911, you are pretty fucked if they are your only option-- and it is this way because calls to 911 are so scarce in your area because of low population density, coupled with insufficient county funds for more local services to be provided-- So basically you are penalized for where you live, worse than if you lived in the inner city when it comes to quality civil services being rendered) I see the need for owning and operating a firearm for personal protection and for protection of property (not necessarily from humans either.)

Do I see a need for fucking Uzis though?  Fuck no.

A single shot rifle, and a reasonable handgun are appropriate in such localities. Being proficient with their use is simply practical sense, and that means being sure you know how to use them properly and safely, so gun training as a mandatory for ownership gets no chaff from me.

However-- people who live in or very near a city?  What possible reason do you have to own a gun?  None?  Right-- did not think so.
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alway

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17938 on: February 24, 2018, 11:21:38 am »


... though in cases like this, you might also have decent luck if you pulled the GOP's arm out the FBI and ATF's asses when it comes to firearm tracking. Imagine for a second how brain-dead obvious it is these days to set up a system that automatically crosschecks and flags for extra followup various warning signs and tips sent in with firearm ownership, purchase, or attempted purchase, and then realize the bloody "firearm advocates" in this country have persistently bodyblocked the possibility of making one.
More detail on this: https://www.thetrace.org/2016/08/atf-ridiculous-non-searchable-databases-explained/
It's not just that their records are inefficient, it's that they are inefficient and unsearchable *by law* because conservatives keep it that way. Gun records are hard copies, which are then photographed and saved as images, with no text processing ability for any of it.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17939 on: February 24, 2018, 11:24:25 am »

Sounds like a job for high end OCR in a datacenter as an end-run.  :P

Like the kind used by google books.

Sure, their records are all rasterized PDFs of hard copies, but guess what-- Still possibly searchable by modern computers, given the right resources.
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