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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1572078 times)

bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17415 on: February 23, 2018, 04:06:55 pm »

Regardless, I'm not about to judge anyone for choosing not to bring a handgun to an AR fight.
I wouldn't judge them either, unless it happened to be their exact job which they have trained for, and that furthermore there are children that are part of the AR fight. There have been plenty of people who tried to overcome the attackers (and sometimes succeeded) while completely unarmed. Even if he wasn't going to join the actual fighting, he could've at least helped people evacuate.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17416 on: February 23, 2018, 04:09:11 pm »

Regardless, I'm not about to judge anyone for choosing not to bring a handgun to an AR fight.
I wouldn't judge them either, unless it happened to be their exact job which they have trained for, and that furthermore there are children that are part of the AR fight. There have been plenty of people who tried to overcome the attackers (and sometimes succeeded) while completely unarmed. Even if he wasn't going to join the actual fighting, he could've at least helped people evacuate.
Yeah. I assumed that they had just gotten some kids in a classroom and barricaded. The standing outside thing does seem to reflect panic. I have to wonder though- what the hell would most people do in his place? I take some of the blame off at that thought.

Right wing commentators are blasting the dude though. Perfect anti-gun control scapegoat for them.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17417 on: February 23, 2018, 04:15:59 pm »

I mean you realize the potential fuel you are talking about are schoolchildren, right.
uh, possibly more importantly than than that people aren't actually fires and do not operate under the same mechanisms as a wildfire, never mind we currently by and large can't even manage the research to find out if methods other than "accelerant" are still viable thanks to the country's goddamn conservative politicians

... also the "fire", if you really want to call proliferation that, is an increasingly small minority of the population, so... I'unno. I guess murdering gun collectors and shop owners and whatnot and melting down their stock is a thing you could do, but somehow I can't help but think it'd be of a degree of use somewhere in the same ballpark as arming teachers.

Regardless, I'm not about to judge anyone for choosing not to bring a handgun to an AR fight.
I wouldn't judge them either, unless it happened to be their exact job which they have trained for, and that furthermore there are children that are part of the AR fight. There have been plenty of people who tried to overcome the attackers (and sometimes succeeded) while completely unarmed. Even if he wasn't going to join the actual fighting, he could've at least helped people evacuate.
I mean... my question is if he actually was trained for it. Iirc the guy was a school resource officer in his fifties, not someone in... whatever the hell unit handles situations like that. Swat or something, probably. If his training included prep for a mass shooting event involving shit like an AR-15 to begin with, the chances of said training being worth a shit are pretty small.

It's certainly not his job, though. Courts established there's no duty to protect individuals a long ways back, and if the suspect was arrested his "job" was more or less done.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17418 on: February 23, 2018, 04:45:24 pm »

Right wing commentators are blasting the dude though. Perfect anti-gun control scapegoat for them.

Personally, I think it's the perfect example of why their "good guy with a gun" argument doesn't work. Unless you man all the schools with literal Rambo. Real people don't perform like in the movies, because unlike the killer, they aren't insane.

Also, it's hypocritical for someone like e.g. Dinesh D'Souza to slam the guy for not going in like John McClane. In real life D'Souza would be shitting himself, and using African-American babies as human shields to save his own life.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 04:52:06 pm by Reelya »
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17419 on: February 23, 2018, 04:46:06 pm »

<snip>

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17420 on: February 23, 2018, 06:28:59 pm »

I think Jim Wright put it best: You'd be asking teachers to be trained and prepared to gun down not just kids, but kids that they know, potentially in cold blood. And that's some darker than black operations shit that we don't even train soldiers for, much less underpaid educators.

You can't "just shoot someone", even someone dangerous, on the drop of a hat. Modern military training (and unfortunately, police training) focuses on turning the action into a reflex, and the reason they do that is because people often will consciously or unconsciously "delope" and miss by a mile due to their ingrained inhibition against killing. People do this even in the heat of combat, in a war, fighting an enemy army that is trying to kill them. To suggest that this wouldn't be an overriding factor in getting teachers to gun down their own students is positively...Trumpian, I guess.

Personally, I think the pound for pound best thing we could do is improve conditions in schools to be more humane. That I think using the word "humane" in particular for school conditions is right says it all. The banality and daily frustration of the environment is more a contributing factor to shootings, and all other forms of school violence, than most people are talking about.

Since you mention training, that would probably involve teachers learning to behave like police do with firearms, also.  Where they have to consider anyone who tries to come within arms reach of them a potential threat, because their weapon could be taken off them.  Now teachers can't even offer warmth to their students.  If a student is emotional for some reason and wants a hug, they could be unstable and making a play for the weapon on your hip.  No, Timmy don't come fucking near me or I'll shoot.  Stay 15 ft away and tell me about it.  No high-fiving a line of students as they walk past into the classroom.  One could easily turn around as soon as they walk past and reach for your belt while you're distracted by the next high-five.  Kids don't even have to try to sneak guns into school.  They're already there.  All they need is a clever move.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17421 on: February 23, 2018, 07:09:33 pm »

I think Jim Wright put it best: You'd be asking teachers to be trained and prepared to gun down not just kids, but kids that they know, potentially in cold blood. And that's some darker than black operations shit that we don't even train soldiers for, much less underpaid educators.
(Bearing in mind that this story is still unfolding, so who knows if I'm defaming the guy on top of Trump's own condemnation ...) Apparently you can't even rely upon a sworn-in law-enforcement operative to be prepared to go into action, either, so please allow me to add to the doubts.

edit:
Right wing commentators are blasting the dude though. Perfect anti-gun control scapegoat for them.
Not exactly "good guy with a gun" posterchild, either, him not being a John McClane.

edit2: Darn, very much ninjaed by Reelya.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 07:15:18 pm by Starver »
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Baffler

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17422 on: February 23, 2018, 08:11:29 pm »

Regardless, I'm not about to judge anyone for choosing not to bring a handgun to an AR fight.
I wouldn't judge them either, unless it happened to be their exact job which they have trained for, and that furthermore there are children that are part of the AR fight. There have been plenty of people who tried to overcome the attackers (and sometimes succeeded) while completely unarmed. Even if he wasn't going to join the actual fighting, he could've at least helped people evacuate.
Yeah. I assumed that they had just gotten some kids in a classroom and barricaded. The standing outside thing does seem to reflect panic. I have to wonder though- what the hell would most people do in his place? I take some of the blame off at that thought.

Right wing commentators are blasting the dude though. Perfect anti-gun control scapegoat for them.

Most of the right-leaning commentators I follow are basically saying of him "lol and libs think the government will protect them." Which I have to say, even from my own quite right-leaning position, is almost impressively far off from the point. Those saying he just froze up, and that it just happens sometimes because he (like most people) isn't Rambo have more of a point I think. The only difference in the two sides there is the difference between "...and therefore as a single incident this should not be used to disenfranchise large numbers of people" and "...and therefore security officers have been proven inadequate, we must disenfranchise the people for their own protection." And so it becomes a value judgement.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 08:19:09 pm by Baffler »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17423 on: February 23, 2018, 09:03:09 pm »

... pretty sure there's more than that difference going on. Most of what I've been seeing on the sanity side of things have been more pointing out that if a police officer isn't going to cut it, how the blazes is a school teacher? It's only a value judgement inasmuch as it's pointing out the value of propositions to being firearms into the classroom is unlikely to be high (well, freakishly unlikely and far more likely to make many things worse, but whatever).

The reasons for rolling back the interpretation of the 2nd to the early 1990s or thereabouts hinge on a lot of other stuff, that the guy (and also a few other officers, apparently, if the news I've noticed is anything to go by) reacted as he did is more a highlight on one of the myriad reasons arming teachers is something charitably described as fuckstupid.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:05:12 pm by Frumple »
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17424 on: February 23, 2018, 09:18:58 pm »

... pretty sure there's more than that difference going on. Most of what I've been seeing on the sanity side of things have been more pointing out that if a police officer isn't going to cut it, how the blazes is a school teacher? It's only a value judgement inasmuch as it's pointing out the value of propositions to being firearms into the classroom is unlikely to be high (well, freakishly unlikely and far more likely to make many things worse, but whatever).

The reasons for rolling back the interpretation of the 2nd to the early 1990s or thereabouts hinge on a lot of other stuff, that the guy (and also a few other officers, apparently, if the news I've noticed is anything to go by) reacted as he did is more a highlight on one of the myriad reasons arming teachers is something charitably described as fuckstupid.

Is the plural of fuck stupid fucksstupid or fuckstupids? Also, what could possibly make someone think, like for reals, that a trained teacher would react differently than a trained security guard or police officer? That's a terrible argument.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17425 on: February 23, 2018, 09:40:36 pm »

Plural is the latter. Whatever the modifier the base noun itself is "stupid", which is what gets plural'd on.
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hector13

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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17427 on: February 23, 2018, 09:46:55 pm »

I'm filing the teacher militia idea as another half-baked Trumpism that only reached the light of day because Trump craves the easy attention that comes with any proposal from the president, however spurious. It's such an obviously stupid and impractical "plan" that to even treat it seriously pushes the conversation backwards and makes the whole situation resemble something of a farce.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17428 on: February 23, 2018, 09:49:41 pm »

Fucking Democrats, politicizing mass murder as well as committing it, the bastards.

So much tribalism. If America keeps on the way things are going, the left and the right there are going to diverge into separate species who can no longer interbreed then after 1000 years of devastating warfare between the remnants of the Demoks and the Repugs, the Repugs will convert their bodies into armored war machines called the Gupers:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:52:02 pm by Reelya »
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17429 on: February 23, 2018, 09:52:20 pm »

Fucking Democrats, politicizing mass murder as well as committing it, the bastards.

So much tribalism. If America keeps on the way things are going, the left and the right there are going to diverge into separate species who can no longer interbreed then after 1000 years of devastating warfare between the remnants of the Demoks and the Repugs, the Repugs will convert their bodies into armored war machines called the Gupers:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

https://www.shmoop.com/time-machine-hg-wells/eloi-morlocks.html
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