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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1117245 times)

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21480 on: June 13, 2018, 08:02:57 pm »

Satire died when Trump actually put an global warming denialist in charge of the EPA. But, why blame satirists for their field being rendered obsolete? And is it really worth considering at all, instead of the actual things the conservatives are doing?

That last statement is my general response to a lot of criticism of the left. From SJWs to fractionalism to offending moderates to insufficiently offending moderates, these are all not really important issues compared to influence peddling, regulatory capture, profiteering and nepotism, racism and open support of domestic terrorists.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21481 on: June 13, 2018, 08:34:02 pm »

I mean, I guess denialist isn't as stupid sounding as denier, so good on ya there, though I'm pretty far left so it's hard to call that a pure left/right issue, but the biggest criticism of the left is that it's really the center at best.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21482 on: June 13, 2018, 08:53:42 pm »

That last statement is my general response to a lot of criticism of the left. From SJWs to fractionalism to offending moderates to insufficiently offending moderates, these are all not really important issues compared to influence peddling, regulatory capture, profiteering and nepotism, racism and open support of domestic terrorists.

On their own they're not important issues. However, anything that prevents the Democrats from being considered a viable alternative does in fact empower all the latter vices you mentioned.

Pushing the Democrat further to the left in fact shifts the "line" to the left, which in fact allows the other side to push further right without losing as much support as they would otherwise.

Sure you can say fuck moderates and that SJW aren't a real issue, however they're a perceived issue by moderates and it's the moderate voters you need to win to win elections. That's how it works.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 09:01:40 pm by Reelya »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21483 on: June 13, 2018, 09:01:24 pm »

That's fallacious. Nobody ever says the Republicans need to play a useless passionless centrist Because That's How You Win The Votes. They run people one step short of nuclear war and do fine.

Centrists are not more electable than other people. The left is flippantly dismissed in spite of strong victories without the support of the goddamned Party, sometimes in districts so red the Democrats just let them go.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21484 on: June 13, 2018, 09:03:42 pm »

Again, this is a strawman. i didn't say "centrists are more electable".

I said ... you physically cannot win without picking up the moderate vote. However you go about it. This is just a reality check. You cannot win with only die-hard liberals voting for you.

so what's the strategy then? How are the Democrats going to appeal to Joe Average who doesn't have a strong party affiliation either way? Just relying on the other side to implode isn't always guaranteed to work.

For example and to point out the difference between appealing to the center vs "being a centrist candidate", Sanders was potentially more appealing to the center voters who aren't party affiliated than Clinton was. He did better in polling vs Trump than Clinton did for this reason.

EDIT: One example of why the current strategy is lacking is demonization of people who voted for Trump last time. They clearly have the numbers where it counts. Those are the people you need to win next time, so pushing them away is a losing game. Sure, you can loudly say they're all terrible people with views that don't matter, but how exactly is that going to change the outcome of the next election?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 09:19:31 pm by Reelya »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21485 on: June 13, 2018, 09:06:49 pm »

I found out about John Oliver when an angry guy on Reddit compared my humor to him. It was the nicest insult anyone's ever given me.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21486 on: June 13, 2018, 09:10:52 pm »

There is no "moderate vote" in reality. Nor is there really a conservative or liberal or socialist vote. Looking at it like that leaves one utterly incapable of explaining and learning from voter patterns like Sanders/Trump or Obama/Trump. It leads one to utterly mad conclusions like "Trump is a true moderate president who managed to split the center".

Medicare For All is supported by most Americans, and is an issue far too "left" even for most of the left Democrats. Where the fuck is that strat? Most Americans also support radical election law reform and just about everyone is sick of capitalism, but cannot articulate their feelings because those discussions are exiled from mass media.

Trump literally got some of the anticapitalist vote by knowing nothing about economics, because his deviance from The Line was water to the desert of economic political discussion in the US.

Winning voters just doesn't work like popular analysis portrays it. Demonstrably. I could say that "centrists will vote for socialist candidates if they have them available", but that's still misrepresenting how all this really works.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21487 on: June 13, 2018, 09:34:09 pm »

I mean, the Democratic Socialists of America are a thing and actively trying to push the DNC further left to pick up voters who simply don't bother showing up when given a giant douche or a giant turd sandwich to pick between.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21488 on: June 13, 2018, 10:09:48 pm »

I'd also point out that US political discussion gets pushed into narrow channels that don't fully express what's going on in the country.  Abortion, LGBT issues, states rights, whatever the fuck the vagaries of "small government" and "the economy" are supposed to be.  The information we're provided about candidates distills complicated issues into a series of yes-no questions.  Bernie and Trump both had issues outside those questions and only could get their messages across by being so entertaining and difficult to summarize that news companies would just show footage of them talking.  And yes I would say Bernie was entertaining, he was dry but he was blunt and very determined to stay on message.

Other issues outside the yes-no summarization: environmentalism wasn't part of the mainstream political discussion until Al Gore went and made it part.  Nowadays, legalizing pot (and more broadly, undoing "hard on crime" and "the war on drugs") is an issue that's been broadly important to many Americans for a long time yet its been mostly absent from the party platforms and the mainstream news discussions.  Although that's changing.  Let's see... police reform, huge issue on the local government level but tiny issue on the state and federal level.  Net neutrality is another big one.  Foreign policy is a huge issue that gets neglected.  When politicians get asked questions about diplomacy they get asked fundamentally shallow questions like "what would you do to promote peace in the Middle East?"  There's just no effective way to answer that until you're elected, and no one is going to say that they don't *want* peace in the Middle East.  A question like "do you believe we should continue sending arms to Saudi Arabia" or "Do you think the cartels are a threat to the US?  Is it our place to try to stop them and if so what would you do?"  Or even something like "if the EU had an economic disaster right now would you loan them money to keep countries from defaulting or would you cut them off?"  Just... something vaguely hardball that would reveal something of substance about how a candidate thinks.  Obviously every candidate in a primary* is going to have the same answer to a vague question like "what will you do to win Americas' wars/help the economy."

I guess what I'm saying is in the US we so rarely see candidates running on their own issues.  Al Gore, Bernie and Trump being obvious exceptions.  Most candidates slot themselves into the same party line issues.  And so we get the odd situation where the 2000 elections and 2016 elections featured similar talking points in a vastly different world.  Or at least that's what it feels like, I'll admit that I've only been politically aware for like 10 years.  Someone older than me can talk about that one but from where I'm sitting it feels like our political "issues" have remained static through like 4-5 decades of important change.

*...prior to 2016
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21489 on: June 13, 2018, 10:28:44 pm »

Colbert is amazing.

John Oliver... He does a great job of introducing people to issues, with well thought out summary information and perspective.  But I find his humor really annoying.  Awkward, jarring, forced delivery of jokes that are usually total non-sequitur instead of anything witty.  It's like... "Dry informative political rant dry informative political rant dry informative political rant LIKE CHE GUEVARA RIDING A GIANT CHINCHILLA IN SPACE dry informative political rant dry informative political rant."  Probably doesn't help that I don't think he's a very charismatic guy in general.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21490 on: June 13, 2018, 11:28:15 pm »

Heh, that's pretty much my take, except I do find him charismatic.  Probably the British accent.
I haven't seen any of his stuff recently, but I really enjoyed... no, appreciated his explanation of police "asset forfeiture".  It's madness, and somehow reality.

The comic relief parts (literally, relief from the dry but useful explanations) are pretty clownish.  Just didn't bother me.  Or maybe they're the reason I don't actively seek out his work.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21491 on: June 14, 2018, 12:08:19 am »

Wait, how did Gore force the Republicans to be anti-environment?
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21492 on: June 14, 2018, 12:27:29 am »

Environmental discussion didn't happen much until Nixon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon#Domestic_policy
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21493 on: June 14, 2018, 08:07:34 am »

Wait, how did Gore force the Republicans to be anti-environment?

I assume because he turned pro-environmentalism into a dem issue, and the republicans have to be diametrically opposed to all dem issues
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21494 on: June 14, 2018, 12:02:47 pm »

Democrats are pro-homeostasis, by the way.
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