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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1005797 times)

Ispil

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32100 on: July 13, 2019, 01:02:11 am »

Which is why I personally feel that one of the biggest detriment to the current political system is that politicians can run for re-election.
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32101 on: July 13, 2019, 04:19:58 am »

I feel much the same about Swedish politics.

Representatives' compensation should be in relation to their presence on the seat they're filling.

...Then suddenly we run into the problem of fat assed politicians should have a higher wage than thin ones
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32102 on: July 13, 2019, 05:48:30 am »

No no, it is not "how much of the seat they fill", but "Percentage of each day that it is filled (with THEIR butt-- No, a staffer's butt does not count)."

Problem solved.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32103 on: July 13, 2019, 08:28:27 am »

Or just... you know... break up the parties. Because the party organization is the one pushing this sort of thing.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32104 on: July 13, 2019, 08:39:09 am »

Or just... you know... break up the parties. Because the party organization is the one pushing this sort of thing.
How would we go about breaking up the parties?
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32105 on: July 13, 2019, 08:55:48 am »

Or just... you know... break up the parties. Because the party organization is the one pushing this sort of thing.
How would we go about breaking up the parties?

Logistically, legally, or philosophically?

You could definetly split both parties into their moderate (insofar as they exist on the Republican side) and far left/right sections, but I'm not sure how much further they can be divided. The Green and Libertarian parties already have their niches.

The main problem though is the first past the post system, which makes a two party system inevitable.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32106 on: July 13, 2019, 09:10:20 am »

Or just... you know... break up the parties. Because the party organization is the one pushing this sort of thing.
How would we go about breaking up the parties?

Logistically, legally, or philosophically?

You could definetly split both parties into their moderate (insofar as they exist on the Republican side) and far left/right sections, but I'm not sure how much further they can be divided. The Green and Libertarian parties already have their niches.

The main problem though is the first past the post system, which makes a two party system inevitable.
If I remember correctly, there would need to be a Constitutional Amendment to replace the FPTP with another system, the alternate vote system, this video explains it better than me
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32107 on: July 13, 2019, 10:04:46 am »

Or just... you know... break up the parties. Because the party organization is the one pushing this sort of thing.
How would we go about breaking up the parties?

Consider constructing a guillotine.
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Dostoevsky

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32108 on: July 13, 2019, 11:42:22 am »

Which is why I personally feel that one of the biggest detriment to the current political system is that politicians can run for re-election.

If a member wouldn't have to run for reelection, then they're pretty much entirely unaccountable to their constituents. In my personal opinion this is more of a mixed bag than the prior statement may suggest - yes they can turn around and betray all of their campaign promises and/or the ideologies of those who elected the member, but they can also negotiate and reach deals that could advance good policy but primary voters would howl at. Or, y'know, advance bad policy.

The other big issue is that having rapid turnover would result in lacking people who understand how things work in Congress. That includes both the petty corruption side of things and the 'how do I do amendments' side of things. Staff hopping from old office to new office would mitigate both of those things, but only so much.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32109 on: July 13, 2019, 05:39:44 pm »

Or just... you know... break up the parties. Because the party organization is the one pushing this sort of thing.
How would we go about breaking up the parties?

Logistically, legally, or philosophically?

You could definetly split both parties into their moderate (insofar as they exist on the Republican side) and far left/right sections, but I'm not sure how much further they can be divided. The Green and Libertarian parties already have their niches.

The main problem though is the first past the post system, which makes a two party system inevitable.
If I remember correctly, there would need to be a Constitutional Amendment to replace the FPTP with another system, the alternate vote system, this video explains it better than me

Just saying "Break up the parties" is a bit of an "Eat the rich" solution to things. It would be almost undoable, especially since those parties have control over almost every recourse you'd use to enact a breakup. Not to mention such a breakup would leave things a bit chaotic and probably enable even worse forces to slip into positions of control than before...

There is however an undercurrent in some circles who quote George Washington as specifically warning against political parties.

20 I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the state, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party, generally.

21 This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

22 The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.

23 Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

24 It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

25 There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.

Ignoring the fact that parties had already formed, and Washington had chosen his side and was mostly angry that others were disagreeing with him, it's still fairly prescient a statement, having been given a chance to see history unfold so closely to what he was warning about.

With all that said though, I can think of no feasible way, short of a spontaneous, widespread, anti-political uprising, that we could go about it. So break up the parties, eat the rich, and a pony for every American.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32110 on: July 14, 2019, 12:05:32 am »

No no, it is not "how much of the seat they fill", but "Percentage of each day that it is filled (with THEIR butt-- No, a staffer's butt does not count)."

Problem solved.

Still, this could create perverse incentives. i.e. being in session all the time to maximize their income and spending less time responding to constituent's concerns. i.e. they could Filibuster happily all day because they get paid overtime. Sitting in that room as much as possible isn't necessarily a good measure of productivity. There should be some good medium, however if congress was required to spend literally all their time in session they'd become more and more out of touch with the information they're meant to be on top of.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 12:09:36 am by Reelya »
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32111 on: July 14, 2019, 12:29:33 am »

But they're already out of touch, considering they're like 80 years old.
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Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32112 on: July 14, 2019, 05:48:53 am »

But they're already out of touch, considering they're like 80 years old.

And millionaires with a vast staff literally doing everything for them but wiping their ass.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32113 on: July 14, 2019, 06:19:57 am »

Sometimes that, too, presumably. If they're coherent enough to do their shambling excuse for politics they're probably not that far gone, but it's not impossible.

Though if they are, at least they're probably paying whoever does it. Most (steadily increasing in scale) elderly care in this country gets dumped on unpaid, unsupported family members.

It's honestly kinda' weird how little political attention is given to the issue, perhaps especially given how disproportionately the care in question falls on female family members... lots of other stuff on that front is getting signal boosted these days, but not this particular issue. Which fucking sucks. It'd be real nice if there were more resources to tap on that front. Folks I'm living with aren't at the point they can't figure out how to wipe their own arse, but they're not far off it either :-\
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 06:22:57 am by Frumple »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32114 on: July 14, 2019, 07:15:50 am »

Hell bro, I work in an LTC facility.  Most of the people I care for can't tell the difference between a trashcan and a toilet, and I wish that was hyperbole. But it's not. :(

While going senile is not part of the normal aging process, it is a phenomenon that is on the rise.  In another 20 years time, most politicos in their 80s will likely have dementia. That's the current trend.

Something has to be done, and ignoring the problem is not the correct answer.
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