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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3591891 times)

smjjames

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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31246 on: July 22, 2019, 10:58:56 pm »

I need to start making my NAGA hats it seems.

Not Again Goddamnit America.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31247 on: July 23, 2019, 07:01:34 am »

Make sure to make them out of snakeskin.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31248 on: July 23, 2019, 07:35:27 am »

No, Genuine Naugahyde.

Remember, all politicians are reptiles. Be sure to elect the right one.
(No reptiles were harmed in the making of these hats.)
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31249 on: July 23, 2019, 05:39:31 pm »

Too many Us in that word to be american. yes im aware where the company is based, that just accentuates the murrica of rejecting it
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31250 on: July 23, 2019, 06:48:23 pm »

Did I miss something in the budget? The one article said it's only $77B / year higher than current levels (out of $1370 B - so only like 6%).

Now - I'm no fan of deficit spending in general, but calling it "ballooning" is kind of sensationalist isn't it?

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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31251 on: July 23, 2019, 09:38:54 pm »

Did I miss something in the budget? The one article said it's only $77B / year higher than current levels (out of $1370 B - so only like 6%).

Now - I'm no fan of deficit spending in general, but calling it "ballooning" is kind of sensationalist isn't it?

Would you happen to have that article handy? I found one that said a $320 billion increase.

Regardless of the actual number, we can expect claims of ballooning deficits simply because it's Trump at the helm, and this is a way of poking fun at him being a broke idiot shitgibbon con man instead of the financial wizard he claims to be.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31252 on: July 23, 2019, 10:09:28 pm »

I'm also not sure of the exact numbers, but discrepancies can be chalked up to how you're counting it. Whether you're counting it over the 2 years or yearly. Whether you're counting the cuts that went into the budget as well or just the spending increases. And also whether you're counting the spots they've actually managed to find ways to increase revenue to pay for things.

If I had to guess that 320 billion number is total spending increase over two years, without cuts taken into account and ignoring revenues.

77B sounds like a decent number if you wanted to go yearly, and included spending cuts as balancing out spending increases and possibly included revenues in it.

Best part is everyone is spinning it however they want to spin it. Everyone wins... (or loses, if that helps them win re-election.)
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Trolldefender99

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31253 on: July 23, 2019, 10:20:46 pm »

I'm hoping biden gets the nomination, he has the best chance at winning. Either him or Kamala Harris who seems rather smart and does well in debates. I need to read more on her though.

Sanders I liked before, but he seems to be a bit hypocritical with what he says compared to what he does. I wouldn't vote for him anymore, but I did vote for him when it was between him and Hillary. He had recent internal issues with staffers wanting better pay, and it took going to the press to do it because he kept refusing. But then he cut their work hours, so they probably actually make less than they did before if not maybe about the same. He doesn't seem to like giving up his money, even though he asks others to. So much for what I thought was a guy who wanted to take the rich peoples money and pass it around...but guess that doesn't include himself.

Biden I like a lot though, but he doesn't seem to debate too well. The press seem to like him the most and he still tops the polls, but a lot can change from now to nomination time.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31254 on: July 23, 2019, 11:07:01 pm »

Biden was actually traditionally fairly sharp at debates, iirc. Key word being was. Years ago. Folks paying attention have mentioned he's very much noticably worse at it than he used to be. Policy wise he's mostly looking to be more acceptable than the picture his mouth has been painting, but eh. Pretty sure I've said it before but I ain't voting for someone in their mid goddamn seventies in the primary. General it'll be not republican regardless of who the hell it is, but primary has more wiggle room.

Warren's probably my tentative pick at the moment, though she's still older than I'd like and the old GOP affiliation is... squidgy. I've become less kneejerk rejective of harris as I've noticed folks mentioning that a lot of the worse looking stuff with her po po history didn't actually have much of an impact, but... still. Bad look is bad look even if it wasn't worse touch. Regardless, there's still most of a fucking year left before the primary rolls into town here, so there's plenty of time for things to change.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31255 on: July 23, 2019, 11:14:01 pm »

Warren's probably my tentative pick at the moment, though she's still older than I'd like and the old GOP affiliation is... squidgy.

I'm a tentative Warren fan at the moment too. I have concerns about her policy proposals, but at least she reads things.
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Qassius

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31256 on: July 23, 2019, 11:22:22 pm »

Sanders I liked before, but he seems to be a bit hypocritical with what he says compared to what he does. I wouldn't vote for him anymore, but I did vote for him when it was between him and Hillary. He had recent internal issues with staffers wanting better pay, and it took going to the press to do it because he kept refusing. But then he cut their work hours, so they probably actually make less than they did before if not maybe about the same. He doesn't seem to like giving up his money, even though he asks others to. So much for what I thought was a guy who wanted to take the rich peoples money and pass it around...but guess that doesn't include himself.

Not that I like Sanders' policy by any amount, but he's just about one of the most consistent politicians around. The opinions and policies he pushes have been mostly the same since he was a Mayor.

Concerning the wages of the staffers, most candidates don't even PAY their low-level staffers.
Literally all that happened was the union that represented the staffers (he is the ONLY democratic candidate that has a union for his staffers) was negotiating with the Sanders campaign over the issue of hours which has since been resolved: https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/454318-sanders-campaign-reaches-deal-with-union-over-worker-wages

The whole issue is just a Media smear campaign against Bernie, and even as a conservative I have sympathy for Bernie's unfortunate position in this.
From the top comment on this Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/cfch3k/sanders_campaign_responds_to_worker_demands_with/
We can see that these people were working 40 hour work-weeks with $17.00/hour with a "full health insurance without a premium, mental health benefits, parental leave options, a gas card for use while on the job and other options not traditionally available to low-level campaign staff."

Like every other Presidential campaign, Staffers ended up working long hours with 60 hour work-weeks. This pushed their salary to $13/hour. When this discrepancy was noted, they limited hours so that $15/hour was achieved again (Closer to a 40 hour work-week) until the campaign and the union finished negotiating. The media started pushing out articles and creating a whole mess about WHILE it was being resolved- through a healthy relationship between employer and union.
Arguably, the staffers are better now than even before work-hours were extended- as now there's 100% medical coverage for ALL employees: https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/bernie-sanders-2020-staffers-pay

About the only hypocritical thing that Bernie did was accept all that money from Hillary Clinton to give up his presidential bid, and sell out to the DNC.
I'd recommend to judge Bernie purely based on his (abhorrent) policy, because his character is nearly as rock solid as one can be.

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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31257 on: July 24, 2019, 12:08:58 am »

Break it down for us, what's so bad about his policy?
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31258 on: July 24, 2019, 12:52:14 am »

He self-identified as a conservative.

Sander's policies are strongly liberal socialist.

This is a no-brainer.  This would be like having to explain why a liberal finds disfavor with Trump's policies.


[general soapboxing]

Personally, I tend to think of myself as an independent centrist (†), unaligned with any party. That said, I see the mainstream DNC as being a bunch of panderers that talk a good game about the economic status of large demographics of our country, but then do a whole lot of nothing in the legislature, even when they have the necessary majority AND a sympathetic president, and SHOULD have been able to enact such reforms. I take this as being symptomatic of a political group that leverages the existence of an underclass as a means to remain electable; Sort of like a doctor that manages pain, instead of treating its cause, because he gets kickbacks from the drug manufacturers.  I consider this abhorrent, and not what an actual public servant should be doing. (In either case.)  Granted, this is the "worst case" scenario; A fair number probably just suffer from learned helplessness from all the years where they were deadlocked with the GOP, and so were unable (psychologically) to put forward or support the sweeping changes that have been sorely needed for decades.  In either case, the need to remove them, and replace them with actual movers and shakers is sorely apparent.

Likewise, I view the mainstream GOP as transparently obvious examples of quid pro quo between government and large financial and business interests, often with direct stakes involved (being large stake shareholders in such institutions.) They promulgate a false narrative(*) about what capitalism (as a system) is supposed to look like, because that false narrative is what ensures their financial and political power structure.  That it is so obvious, and people so oblivious to its obviousness, makes me die a little inside every time they get away with it.  Needless to say, I feel they need to be removed from power with maximal prejudice.

The "new generation" democrats however, strike me as people who are not hypocrites in regard to their rhetoric about the poor, and actually want to enact actual policies (Shock, HORROR!) that would cost money for the wealthy (EGADS!), and would result in a restoration of the derelict communal infrastructures of the country (UNTHINKABLE!), and are unwilling to roll over for their mainstream "old guard" peers.

This country has not seen this kind of liberalism for over 75 years, and does not know what to do with it.  Personally, I am totally down with getting new infrastructure with government subsidies, like we did with the interstate highway system (A product of "busywork" created by the NewDeal economic policies of FDR), and with getting modernized healthcare regulations (Like the rest of the developed world).  To me, its absolutely obvious that this will cost a great deal of money, but it is also absolutely obvious that the total benefits to the society at large will be much greater than this cost.  The issue is that the channel of communication is dominated by those with the most to lose, (Since they do not profit much from improving the social norms of the country at large), and so false stories of "SOCIALISM!!" (in the Red Menace sense(+)) get spread around with fat brushes to scare the public into making decisions that are counter to their actual interests. (Because actually fixing social inequality gets rid of the mainstream DNC's meal ticket, and actually fixing social inequality will result in reduced profits for GOP stakeholders).

Sanders, Warren, and co. have been staunchly in the "Actually DO something!" category for YEARS.  They are just now getting to have a platform, and it's about fucking time.

I would be happier with younger candidates too, but saying that they are hypocrites is just unfounded.

(†) Centrist, in that I view a balance between liberalism and conservatism to be the ideal state. It is indeed entirely possible to be so liberal and tax happy to fund such antics, that people cannot succeed.  However our CURRENT status is SO EXTREMELY FAR to the right, that policies that are rightfully seen as radically left are absolutely needed to reach this center.  I reject modern "moderates", as they are not actually center. They are just "not so far in the Right-wing"; a position that keeps getting dragged further and further to the right by more and more radical conservatism.

(*) Capitalism, as a system, is predicated on the supposition that the market is comprised of many small actors, all constrained by public consumption patterns, to provide the maximally productive and highest quality products at the lowest pricepoints.   However, this is not the system that is being supported by the GOP, which is instead an oligopoly; A system dominated by a handful of massive players that dictate consumer behaviors, mandate and fix price points, abuse their dominant positions to provide inferior quality products and services, and which distort government through "lobbying", "political donations", and the offers of cooshy positions for tractable politicians.  The GOP pretends this latter system is "Capitalism."  It's not.


(+) There is purposeful misrepresentation of "liberal socialism" (more modernly, "Euro-socialism") with "marxist socialism" and "Soviet socialism".  This is done purely for political reasons by people who really DO know better, but profit from the combination of ignorance and information overload in the public, to engineer a more favorable narrative that keeps the disruptors out of power by deplatforming them.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 03:12:20 am by wierd »
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31259 on: July 24, 2019, 04:54:35 am »

"liberal socialism"

*loud socialist grumbles*
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