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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1190192 times)

PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32565 on: August 14, 2019, 03:08:31 pm »

In the worst possible sense, a recession would be good for Democratic policy ideals, in the same way that the Titanic was good for ship safety reformers. This must have been a small consolation for those who happened to be on the Titanic at the time.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32566 on: August 14, 2019, 03:17:00 pm »

in the same way Trump would be good for America in the long run in that it will hopefully teach people firsthand about the dangers of his kind of populism.

You're not wrong. Cultures learn these things only after they've come through them.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32567 on: August 14, 2019, 03:23:52 pm »

While yes, a recession is caused by many different things happening at the same time, I think that the President who ran a major part of his campaign on being the only one anywhere capable of improving the economy and blaming everyone's ideas but his own for recent recessions should get a specific extra-large portion of blame for the recession that was triggered as a result of his policies.

Guns have lots of moving parts, but the guy who pulled the trigger still gets the blame.

Well yeah, insofar as his/her policies making things worse and/or having campaigned on 'Only I can fix it!', they should get blamed that way. However, the cause might not be as clear cut as it was in 2008, instead of one big bubble bursting, it's more like several big to medium sized bubbles bursting amid a global slowdown that's already happening.

in the same way Trump would be good for America in the long run in that it will hopefully teach people firsthand about the dangers of his kind of populism.

You're not wrong. Cultures learn these things only after they've come through them.

I dunno, with the way that the Republicans have been embracing the populism, I don't know if they'd learn the lession anytime soon. The establishment is definetly trying to ride it out and hope it goes away though.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32568 on: August 14, 2019, 03:30:21 pm »

Cultures learn these things only after they've come through them.

First as tragedy, forty-eighth as farce?

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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32569 on: August 14, 2019, 07:08:32 pm »

Cultures learn these things only after they've come through them.

First as tragedy, forty-eighth as farce?


Eh, I mean about super racist populist leaders. Recessions are eventually unavoidable (to a certain degree). Cultures tend to take a step back and make (some) social progress after stuff like that, and generally not before.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32570 on: August 14, 2019, 07:12:06 pm »

Neither recessions nor racism are unavoidable. We choose these things for ourselves and the world.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32571 on: August 14, 2019, 07:16:58 pm »

Racism is pretty super avoidable.

Recessions are commonly thought of as part of a cycle, and the best way to realistically manage them is to take steps to lessen their potential impact. But again, they can be triggered by stupidity or greed, and the people who cause them in this way should be held accountable. Like if Trump's jackassed trade war causes one.

Theoretically it is possible to simply plan well enough that recessions never happen because we've planned for every eventuality, but this seems unlikely.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32572 on: August 14, 2019, 07:19:50 pm »

Recessions aren't a mistake, they're an intentional outcome of capitalism. That's why the rich gain in power during recessions. That's why they happen like clockwork - because they're happening on a schedule.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32573 on: August 14, 2019, 07:27:55 pm »

Can't disagree with that. Capitalism serves the rich, and is meant (ostensibly) to enrich the poor through trickle-down bullshit, therefore recessions are natural in Capitalism. I think we're on the same wavelength here.

Naturally it does not do what it purports and only enriches the rich, as most governments are intended to do.

EDIT: I do think it's possible for recessions to be brought around by stupidity, though. Possible example forthcoming, stay tuned for a few months.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32574 on: August 14, 2019, 07:30:37 pm »

There's another shooting happening in Philadelphia right now. Six officers shot, none killed.

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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32575 on: August 14, 2019, 07:37:25 pm »

Holy geez, I was aware of it because my company delivers in Philly, but I had no idea it had gotten that bad since I last heard about it.

Six officers. They're going to further militarize the police, you know. That's what happened last time with what was it, the North Hollywood bank robbery way back when? That got used as a justification for a lot of increased arming of police at the time.

Also that's what.... 5? Are we up to five major shootings in 30 days now?
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Ispil

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32576 on: August 14, 2019, 07:44:44 pm »

Not that I am one to agree with MetalSlimeHunt (I do not agree that recessions are intentional or there's some rich-person international cabal who sets exactly when these things happen), but shit has gotten pretty bad:



Like, really bad. It's pretty damn clear who recovered from 2008 and who didn't.

Here's a detailing on exactly what ways we've all been particularly fucked.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 07:52:10 pm by Ispil »
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32577 on: August 14, 2019, 08:01:27 pm »

I don't think the rich cause (or really want) recessions.  I do think they have the tools and resources to more easily recover or even gain during a recession.

But I've been saying for a good while that the '08 rec never really ended in anything but words.  When Joey average needs to work 80 hours in three part time jobs to live, the economy isn't doing well.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32578 on: August 14, 2019, 08:01:46 pm »

I do not agree that recessions are intentional or there's some rich-person international cabal who sets exactly when these things happen
It's called investment banking. There doesn't need to be cabals or explicit agreements because capitalists, as a distinct class, have coinciding interests even when in competition and so broadly pursue the same goals. All capitalists benefit from workers being in a state of precariousness, and so tend to support policies that result in that outcome without needing to agree upon it. Of course, we today also exist in a web of hellish propaganda which further strengthens this goal, which then feeds back into the incentive level as members of the capitalist class become increasingly weird and apocalyptic on the level of conscious ideology. This is where people who want to eat up the Earth so Jesus will burn the billions of dirty foreigner sinners come from.

Anyway, you could sort-of argue it's not intentional, but only in the sense that it's impossible for a capitalist to not set the cycle in motion unless they go full class traitor which necessitates them divesting their wealth anyway.
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Like, really bad. It's pretty damn clear who recovered from 2008 and who didn't.
This on the other hand was super intentional and decided by very individual actors. There was zero actual recovery from 2008 because recovering was impossible even for the rich due to existing wealth concentration. To get around this the federal government loaned hundreds of billions of dollars out exclusively to owners of capital and then "lost" on the investment, i.e. taking more wealth from you and giving it to the rich. This is one of the few cases where taxation was actually theft.

The rest of us just settled into a new reality. You'll be asked to settle again during the Great Annihilation (I'm going to keep using the name. Nobody can stop me.).
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Ispil

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32579 on: August 14, 2019, 08:04:55 pm »

Oh yeah, I won't argue against the 2008 debacle. That was a total mess.

As for the next one, as I mentioned earlier the main two things that can be hit for a debt deflationary spiral are student loans and car loans, but I don't think car loans are significant enough. That leaves student loans.

Which, as something else I realized, are mostly handled at the federal level. When a bunch of people default on a debt they have with a bank, the bank goes under.

What happens when a bunch of people default on a debt that they have with the federal government? We're not talking debt with a cut-out- we're talking debt with the US Department of Education, directly. What happens when an entire federal department goes bankrupt?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 08:08:47 pm by Ispil »
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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it."- Voltaire

I transcribe things, too.
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