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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1521189 times)

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37740 on: June 30, 2020, 07:20:59 pm »

A woman must ALWAYS have the agency to choose whether or not to seek an abortion, because it is absolutely their own body that is physically involved. The decision to regulate legal abortions is NOT tantamount to banning legal abortions, and that argument should not come up in any good-faith discussion about abortion.

Life ends all the time, both by our choice and not. "Genetically human" is just a long string of data that by itself means nothing. That genome is contained in its entirety in every living cell in your body. It could be stored in a computer, or written down on paper. If your only metric is "a collection of human cells", then that's not going to be enough to impress me, because that could also apply to removing tumors or amputating limbs. If you say it's different from that because it's a distinct organism, why does that matter?

I can't provide a definition of "a discreet human life" that I think is universal or that everyone agrees to, but I can say that I'm not going to accept that one.

Yes. Exactly that. You cannot selectively apply "Its just a collection of cells" to one kind of human and not another while still claiming the high ground. It's either that, FOR EVERYONE, and human life doesn't have meaning, or that's NOT the only metric, and we do. And yet, the same logic that applies to our own lives' value applies in every way to an unborn human. Why possible justification could we have to we choose to end a life under these circumstances given that a life is not threatened?
 
We are either a collection of cells with no meaning, or something more. It has nothing to do with religion, it has nothing to do with our beliefs as far as God or the Human Soul or any of that crap that people have been using as an excuse to avoid the issue since forever. And the modern question of abortion has nothing whatsoever to do with what some psycho holding a bible believed 1000 years ago, or 100 years ago, or 10 years ago. It has to do with the very binary choice of whether our society will define at the most basic level whether we value human life or whether we don't. RIGHT NOW we have the medical science available to handle abortions and births with practically zero risk in practically every single situation. In a case where there is a risk to the life of the mother or infant, there is clear grounds for an abortion.

The question of the intrinsic value of human life is the only metric by which we can proceed to arrive at a reasonable and measured conclusion regarding abortion, and humanity will not answer it.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37741 on: June 30, 2020, 07:39:47 pm »

If you can explain to something that it has a right to live, and ask if it wants to keep being alive, and it says yes, you'd be a murderer to disagree forcefully. If it is only vaguely aware it exists but nonetheless has a drive to keep existing, it is wrong to end that existence if it can be avoided, little spidergals and such want to keep being little spidergals, so it bugs me to end them. Why I hate finding a recluse, no safe way to leave them be since they want to come back inside and are too risky to have around. I always hope one of our spitting spidergals will find them before I do, big meal for her, and I didn't have to smush a recluse.

A clump of fertilized cells can spontaneously abort, and many do, is that ending a human life? By the loosest of my restrictions on killing it would need to be aware it exists on some level, so we're well into the pregnancy by that point as the hardware to do so simply doesn't exist before then, and as far as murder goes it can be tricky to instill an understanding of personhood in a 3 year old but it's definitely wrong by that point. At no point between conception and self-realized personhood should MY rights as a male override those of the mother or little person-to-be.

More relevantly though: until republicunts stop placing unborn potential-people above the lives of fully cognizant people who they casually ignore being thrown away into prisons or murdered... they need to be banished to a permanent minority status for a good long time to rethink their positions.

Wanna know the real outcome of banning legal abortions? It isn't zeroing out abortions, it's making them riskier, harder to get done safely, more expensive, which means it ultimately harms the poorest women the most, disproportionately hurting women from minority communities, so hey, here's a bit of racism on top of that misogynistic pie!
Thank you. Very much this.
A woman must ALWAYS have the agency to choose whether or not to seek an abortion, because it is absolutely their own body that is physically involved.
And this. Abortion is about human rights/emancipation for women.

EDIT: touching on the subject, from next wednesday onwards, fathers are given the right to take 5 week paid paternal leave (instead of 3 5 days) over here in the Netherlands, to further woman emancipation. While I still think that is pretty darn short, and personally am in favour of giving new parents at least half a year paid leave to care for and bond with their newborns, it is a step in the right direction to stop discrimination of women in child bearing age on the job market.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 08:19:36 pm by martinuzz »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37742 on: June 30, 2020, 07:52:10 pm »

If I seem abrasive and harsh about right wing beliefs, I've been watching them appeal to "our better angels" and "fairness" and "hearing both sides of an argument" for years only to seize every inch of leeway they can before screaming and crying if you even point it out.

If you're feeling attacked because of your shitty beliefs and don't feel comfortable expressing them, I learned it from watching the sources of those shitty beliefs play their manipulative bullshit games, and I'm sick and tired of acting like they have a valid position to argue from when the only reason ANYBODY has to listen to their minority party bullshit is because they rigged the game to stay relevant rather than evolving and adapting to the times.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37743 on: June 30, 2020, 07:57:34 pm »

Also Weird, I do really respect you and most of the well thought opinions you have given over the years on these forums, but I do believe that in this case, your asexuality has you biased. No disrespect, you have every right to be who you are, but don't imbue (probably not the right word, I just can't find the right verb being a non-native speaker  EDIT: project maybe?) your sexuality on others.
Personally I think sex is just fine as a recreational activity if both actors consent and go about it in a responsible way (use protection and screen yourself for STD before engaging in it).  For most people, sex is an enjoyable, healthy and affectionate activity.  Monogamy and abstinence are religious antics imprinted so hard on society that they even persist in the non-religious.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 08:55:15 pm by martinuzz »
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37744 on: June 30, 2020, 07:59:33 pm »

Don't you think it's a bit of a dead end to impose the moral judgement before any choice could have been made? That's not ethics that's just retrospective self-flagellation. I mean if it's a human being abortion is murder full-stop. So if an accident happens are those people liable for not having used multiple layers of redundancy like a civil engineer following regulation standards? Is a woman that refuses to carry out a disabled child a eugenist? Surely this issue must take the crown in matters of life and death, since what would be the point in discussing death without life. Thus those people's responsibility to plan every possible scenario must be equally as high as the engineer's... nononono, we need these deadlines (pun unintended) for those edge cases like the overmentionned rape victims. Are you not going to grant the same grace period to other people because they had various degrees of, "more choices to make a better choice"? Sounds kind of vindictive.

I hate this because it turns life into a collectible figurine -> looses most of it's value as soon as it's out of the package. And anybody who thinks an abortion could ever be without consequences to a woman is simply misinformed.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37745 on: June 30, 2020, 08:10:55 pm »

Yeah, and I'm sorry for being so um... loud about it as well. It's a personal subject for me.

If it helps, I'm tired of right-wing bullshit as well. The idea that abortions should be banned outright and that this is somehow hardcoded into a belief in a Christian God is accurately described as:

Quote from: Max™
shitty beliefs play their manipulative bullshit games

The same stupid assholes who made evolution about religion are just as happy to use abortion to exert control over people for the sake of their own power-boner. We DO need abortions in our society. It's a fact of life. I cannot blame anyone for having entrenched distrust or hate for the people who made this whole thing what it is.

Quote
EDIT: touching on the subject, from next wednesday onwards, fathers are given the right to take 5 week paid paternal leave (instead of 3 days) over here in the Netherlands,

We don't have shit over here in the US. My company gave me 3 days, but they could have legally given me squat.

Quote
Personally I think sex is just fine as a recreational activity if both actors consent and go about it in a responsible way (use protection and screen yourself for STD before engaging in it).

I have problems with this in regards to myself for religious reasons. To me sex IS pair bonding or recreational. I do NOT have problems with people believing otherwise and engaging in recreational sex, because other people having different beliefs doesn't terrify me. But again, responsible to me means "remove the chance of procreation from the equation", not "eh, a 1-in-100 is good enough". You play the lottery, sometimes you win. Or lose, depending on the prize.
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Grim Portent

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37746 on: June 30, 2020, 08:12:17 pm »

I don't see abortion as meaningfully different from turning off a braindead person's life support. They're alive in the sense that cells are still doing things, and there may be bodily functions going on, but there's no actual person there, and the person or mind or whatever you want to call it is the part that actually has value, not the bodily functions. Until there's a functioning brain there's nothing to give rights to, and once the brain stops working there's nothing to take rights from.

Hell, based on my knowledge of child development and experience with the various babies in my extended family I'd say a baby has less meaningful qualities of personhood than a gerbil for the first several weeks or even months of their life.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37747 on: June 30, 2020, 08:15:40 pm »

I have problems with this in regards to myself for religious reasons. To me sex IS pair bonding or recreational. I do NOT have problems with people believing otherwise and engaging in recreational sex, because other people having different beliefs doesn't terrify me.
That I can understand and respect.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37748 on: June 30, 2020, 08:20:15 pm »

I have problems with this in regards to myself for religious reasons. To me sex IS pair bonding or recreational. I do NOT have problems with people believing otherwise and engaging in recreational sex, because other people having different beliefs doesn't terrify me. But again, responsible to me means "remove the chance of procreation from the equation", not "eh, a 1-in-100 is good enough". You play the lottery, sometimes you win. Or lose, depending on the prize.

I mean it's just another fact of life. What are we going to try to procreate and wait 2 months to see if it worked? But the other way round it works too and I think I totally agree with what you said -> I'm mildly terrified when I think I didn't use those multiple layers of redundancy and just opted to trust the other party after an arbitrary amount of time of getting to know eachother. Nothing particularly bad came of it but I can't imagine ever being that naive again.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37749 on: June 30, 2020, 08:29:42 pm »

It's also important not to judge. We need support as a society and as a culture for the people going through this, even if the situation is of their making. It should focus on the health of (what I consider to be) both parties involved. It should continue, if necessary, beyond birth.
 
Can't value life in the womb, and then not value it outside. But then I think we've all made that particular argument.
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Eschar

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37750 on: June 30, 2020, 11:21:01 pm »

Seems I was late to the party, so here's my grains of salt:

I consider abortion as basically falling under the general umbrella of self-defense. Questions of humanity are, well, much less relevant to that standard (that's not why I have this view, just a result); it would hold even if everyone here was an American Evangelical who believes the fetus had a soul breathed into it by Jesus Galt Himself.) The amount of force that can justifiably used for self-defense is inversely proportional to the "distance" of what is being defended (so "you don't respect my property, I won't respect your life" is inexcusable, but lethal force is excusable against somebody trying to kill you even though non-lethal invalidation should be used if possible.) A being leeching off inside someone for several months is about as "close" as one can get...
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37751 on: June 30, 2020, 11:35:25 pm »

I consider abortion as basically falling under the general umbrella of self-defense. Questions of humanity are, well, much less relevant to that standard (that's not why I have this view, just a result); it would hold even if everyone here was an American Evangelical who believes the fetus had a soul breathed into it by Jesus Galt Himself.) The amount of force that can justifiably used for self-defense is inversely proportional to the "distance" of what is being defended (so "you don't respect my property, I won't respect your life" is inexcusable, but lethal force is excusable against somebody trying to kill you even though non-lethal invalidation should be used if possible.) A being leeching off inside someone for several months is about as "close" as one can get...

Is that being likely to kill the someone? Did the being end up there of its own free will? Can I kill someone I found tied up and locked in my pantry, eating my food?

This is a terribly flawed argument, IMO.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 11:38:11 pm by Bumber »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37752 on: June 30, 2020, 11:38:13 pm »

I do not have religious reasons for the "Should not be recreational" stance.  It comes directly from biology, and the lies people tell themselves.


The biggest lie is that they can have "consequence free sex", eg, "casual sex."  It does not exist, there is always a consequence, just not always a visible one. 

Take for instance, the mixed bag that is the psychological well-being of the people engaging in it.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/oct/10/casual-sex-one-night-stand-self-esteem-psychological-distress

Or, as I previously shined a light on, there's the "chemical pairbonding with people you dont really want a relationship with" problem, and the consequences of repeatedly breaking those bonding patterns through a consistent casual sex regimen.

https://www.medinstitute.org/articles/pair-bonding-and-the-brain/

Both of those are completely outside of any notion of baby jesus, and what that screaming little shit likes or does not like. It's just a hard, cold reality pressing in on a fiction people tell themselves about sex, to better justify an activity that should not be engaged in in such a fashion.  EG, little white lies people tell themselves, so that they can feel better about their choices.

Those little white lies do not become true, no matter how many times you tell yourself otherwise.
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Eschar

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37753 on: July 01, 2020, 01:29:48 am »

I consider abortion as basically falling under the general umbrella of self-defense. Questions of humanity are, well, much less relevant to that standard (that's not why I have this view, just a result); it would hold even if everyone here was an American Evangelical who believes the fetus had a soul breathed into it by Jesus Galt Himself.) The amount of force that can justifiably used for self-defense is inversely proportional to the "distance" of what is being defended (so "you don't respect my property, I won't respect your life" is inexcusable, but lethal force is excusable against somebody trying to kill you even though non-lethal invalidation should be used if possible.) A being leeching off inside someone for several months is about as "close" as one can get...

Is that being likely to kill the someone? Did the being end up there of its own free will? Can I kill someone I found tied up and locked in my pantry, eating my food?

This is a terribly flawed argument, IMO.

1. Quite possibly.
2. How is that relevant?
3. Did I not specifically say that lethal force is not a proper response to infringement of property rights?!
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37754 on: July 01, 2020, 02:32:40 am »

I mean, me and the missus only really got good at sex once we started being more casual about it, but I doubt that's what you mean by casual.

We aren't casual about pregnancy though, fuck all that noise!
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