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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3535304 times)

MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38445 on: August 01, 2020, 04:10:42 pm »

Why do sane political parties get a disadvantage here?

Because they are stupid enough to try and play by the rules?
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38446 on: August 01, 2020, 05:29:55 pm »

In nature, creatures practice deception with their siblings and parents as play.
   
In nature, "groups of creatures" practice deception on other "groups of creatures" so they can eat them or just milk them.

In human literature, drama, and especially in folklore, it is a heroic moment when a character successfully deceives their opponent, or their future food.

When you spot a lie, you should immediately question if the liar is planning on eating you, or just taking a bite of you (your wealth, your health, or the wealth/health of your kids, each can be lost quickly or slowly).

---------------------------

You cannot measure these political groups by sanity or insanity. It is not insane to lie about something, and that is all they are doing. When a group of people have a common goal, they will lie to reach that goal. Find a lie and you have found an enemy.

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And, it should be the lesson taught by all parents to their kids... you need to be able to lie and you need to be able to spot the lie within the truths.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38447 on: August 01, 2020, 05:36:14 pm »

Why do sane political parties get a disadvantage here? I don’t think I’m the only American who would like a sane political party. Wierd, you’d rather a sane political party instead of the ones we have now, right?

My guess is that game theory / prisoner's dilemma / nash equilibriums also play a part here.

Say that everyone, including the politicians, would be better off if nobody did attack adverts. Then that would be great. But, anyone who doesn't do an attack advert is worse off if someone else uses one against you. So they respond with their own attack adverts. But, ultimately both sides hurling attack adverts hurts both of them in the long run. This is the classic prisoner's dilemma / nash equilibrium problem.

EDIT: this seemed like such a classic prisoner's dilemma scenario that I thought someone must have written about it, so I googled it and there's at least one paper specifically on this one. However, it's not actually a very good paper in explaining the Prisoner's Dilemma so I won't link it.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 05:47:25 pm by Reelya »
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38448 on: August 01, 2020, 05:45:34 pm »

Anyone able to realize that third parties are in a horrible state and who cares to get stuff done will prefer to try and work through an established party or reject electoral politics as a method entirely. This by definition includes the vast majority of same people as well as a large number of less-than-sane individuals; for everyone else, there's Third Party.

*This does not apply if your state has different laws. For instance, New York's electoral fusion laws empower voters to support candidates through other parties that have nominated them. This means that third parties operate effectively as elected interest groups pressuring Democratic or Republican candidates, or running their own candidates if necessary. For example the Working Families Party.

Why do sane political parties get a disadvantage here? I don’t think I’m the only American who would like a sane political party. Wierd, you’d rather a sane political party instead of the ones we have now, right?
By your definition there are not sane political parties to be disadvantaged. But perhaps a lunatic is merely a minority of one.
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JoshuaFH

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38449 on: August 01, 2020, 05:49:26 pm »

Why do sane political parties get a disadvantage here? I don’t think I’m the only American who would like a sane political party. Wierd, you’d rather a sane political party instead of the ones we have now, right?

My guess is that game theory / prisoner's dilemma / nash equilibriums also play a part here.

Say that everyone, including the politicians, would be better off if nobody did attack adverts. Then that would be great. But, anyone who doesn't do an attack advert is worse off if someone else uses one against you. So they respond with their own attack adverts. But, ultimately both sides hurling attack adverts hurts both of them in the long run. This is the classic prisoner's dilemma / nash equilibrium problem.

EDIT: this seemed like such a classic prisoner's dilemma scenario that I thought someone must have written about it, so I googled it and there's at least one paper specifically on this one. However, it's not actually a very good paper in explaining the Prisoner's Dilemma so I won't link it.

Personally, I'd blame the First Past the Post system of voting. Having more than two parties is basically impossible if voters have to vote 'strategically' in order to consolidate voting power behind a single candidate that they wouldn't vote for otherwise, but have to in order to avoid another candidate that they dislike. If there's only two parties, then Mud Slinging is just that much more effective, because if you have only one opponent, mud slinging & fear mongering is useful, but if you were part of a system that allowed a multitude of viable parties, mud slinging is less effective and you'd have to focus on your own strengths and selling yourself on your actual stances and virtues.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38450 on: August 01, 2020, 05:56:51 pm »

Then it looks like we need to create a new voting system, what about ranked voting? There are videos by CGP Grey about the strengths and weaknesses of various voting systems. The other problem, once deciding the new voting system, would be getting people who can change it to change it
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38451 on: August 01, 2020, 06:07:36 pm »

You know what I said, elsewhere, about "There's an xkcd for everything"..?

Maybe I was wrong.  Maybe there's several xkcds for everything!  Let's go for two, this time...
https://xkcd.com/1844/
https://xkcd.com/2225/

(Also, if you don't understand any bit, change "xkcd" to "expxkcd" in the URLs for a crowdsourced explanation that might have agreed upon what it all means. ;))
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38452 on: August 01, 2020, 06:27:31 pm »

Then it looks like we need to create a new voting system, what about ranked voting? There are videos by CGP Grey about the strengths and weaknesses of various voting systems. The other problem, once deciding the new voting system, would be getting people who can change it to change it

The problem is you need to win the game to change the game's rules.  People who win the game aren't interested in changing the game's rules if it means they might stop winning the game.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38453 on: August 01, 2020, 08:00:29 pm »

If you fancy a read... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum

I must say that I had forgotten some of the fun that happened then (and before and after).  I'm not sure what the average AmeriPol reader would think about most of the personalities, politicians, parties and papers namechecked in various parts of the run-through (I was sure the OMRLP had a suitably humorous position, apparently they stayed neutral) but believe me, it's a cultural extravaganza.

(I can't remember if/what I voted.)
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38454 on: August 02, 2020, 05:17:12 am »

Ok, back to AmeriPol...

I don't know which way to turn with this Republican announcement. It sounds like a chance that they think things aren't going to be cut-and-dried, although if internal momentum gets them over such a bump without a drastic change it may appear to have been a rubber-stamping, until/unless someone who is peeved tongue-wags, at least.


(I'd imagine the party/majority position is already hashed out in Zoom, socially-distanced 'chance' meetings in corridors, and the like. Which makes that measure, obviously not what they say it is, even more mysterious.)
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feelotraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38455 on: August 02, 2020, 09:57:07 am »


The problem is you need to win the game to change the game's rules.  People who win the game are n't only interested in changing the game's rules if it means they might stop to ensure that they keep winning the game.

FTFY
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38456 on: August 02, 2020, 10:03:12 am »

The supreme court of Brasil has forced Facebook to block the profiles of a number of supporters of the extreme-right president of Brasil, Bolsonaro, worldwide.

The supreme court already ruled last week that the 12 profiles had to be blocked, as well as 16 Twitter accounts.
According to the judges, the profiles were used to spread hatred and fake news, not limited to, but including hatespeech and fake news about the judges themselves.

The profiles belong to several well known Brasilian businessmen, bloggers and militants who support president Bolsonaro.
A criminal investigation against those is in progress, for spreading hatespeech and fake news.

Twitter and Facebook complied with that request, but only blocked the profiles for users in Brasil.
This meant the verdict could be easily circumvented by Brasilians using secure vpn connections, making it look like the users are from other countries.

Because of this, Supreme Court Judge Alexandre de Moraes ruled last thursday that Facebook has to block the profiles for users worldwide.
Facebook has also been given a fine.
On top of this, the judge threatened to hold Facebook's Brasilian president Conrado Leister personally accountable.

"Confronted with the threat of criminal charges for one of our employees, we have no other choice than to comply with the new ruling", a Facebook spokesman stated saturday.

Facbook has announced that it will appeal against the ruling.   "The new ruling of the Supreme Court is extreme, forms a threat to freedom of speech, does not fall under Brasilian jurisdiction and conflicts with laws and jurisprudence in the rest of the world", Facebook stated.
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JoshuaFH

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38457 on: August 02, 2020, 10:34:11 am »

-
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 11:07:50 am by JoshuaFH »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38458 on: August 02, 2020, 10:46:34 am »

Sure, if they want their local employees tossed in the clink. Brazil's folks are explicitly threatening facebook's brazilian employees if the company doesn't comply. Facebook appears to be trying to work within the system first, in order to avoid... that.
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JoshuaFH

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38459 on: August 02, 2020, 10:55:05 am »

- Just forget I said anything.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 11:08:42 am by JoshuaFH »
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