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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3533288 times)

feelotraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42450 on: December 02, 2020, 10:45:58 am »

America - Leftt-wing : It does not compute.
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42451 on: December 02, 2020, 10:48:05 am »

Trump was not that easy to manipulate. When he looked to more authoritarian world leaders to give him support, it was against his enemies. That is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Not trying to call out @delphonso, this has been voiced by others over time....

The question of whether that was "right" for him to depends on who's feeling of "right" you are using ("feeling of right" because there is no global definition that doesn't f* over someone).
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42452 on: December 02, 2020, 10:53:19 am »

I think it's only the extreme right wing that doesn't like left-wing goals.

I would call myself a conservative person rather than liberal, but I like most of the left-wing goals. I just don't think the canonical left-wing approach can realize those goals.  For example, I would love to have education more accessible to everyone. Simply taxing everyone doesn't do that though - you can't just throw money at it. (You also can't take the extreme right-wing approach and just punish schools for "poor performance" by taking away their funding, hoping that somehow magically they will perform better because they have fewer resources?)  To get more accessible education, you have to encourage educators and instill a culture that values education so that quality supply is increased.

Same thing with health care - I'm all for affordable health care, but you can't just stop by saying it will be funded by tax dollars instead of private insurance.  You have to actually fix the system, not just make everyone (or "the rich") pay for it.

I think we also have to fix rent-seeking in all its forms, but I don't even see that as a left-wing platform topic (usually on the "fringe" parties talk about this one, although right-to-repair at least is gaining traction).

This is not even getting into the fact that the left wing is more overt in its "the government knows better than you / we are putting this rule in place for your own good" for decision making, while the right wing puts on a veneer of "you can make your own decisions!" but stacks the deck so that you can only choose from a very limited selection.
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Sky-Streamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42453 on: December 02, 2020, 11:11:30 am »

Would you like to debate, McTraveller? You seem like a nice person to debate with.

And, I think that, by the left, you may be referring to Authoritarian Leftists. I'm an Anarchist-Communist, which basically means I oppose all structures that unneccessarily restrict the rights and freedoms of the individual, combined with the communist beliefs of worker-owned means of production and replacement of money with people assisting each other. There are a lot of other leftists who believe things like this, such as Syndicalists, Social Democrats and some Individualist Anarchists.

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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42454 on: December 02, 2020, 11:33:27 am »

Would you like to debate, McTraveller? You seem like a nice person to debate with.

And, I think that, by the left, you may be referring to Authoritarian Leftists. I'm an Anarchist-Communist, which basically means I oppose all structures that unneccessarily restrict the rights and freedoms of the individual, combined with the communist beliefs of worker-owned means of production and replacement of money with people assisting each other. There are a lot of other leftists who believe things like this, such as Syndicalists, Social Democrats and some Individualist Anarchists.
I consider myself a social democrat (bordering on democratic socialist) with technocratic elements. Run society based on science and rationality, and slowly abolish capitalism to both minimize chaos and destruction in the wake of a revolution, and allow people to adapt better.

I don't fully agree with anarchism but you guys have a point.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42455 on: December 02, 2020, 12:50:08 pm »

Maybe my leftist friends are way more radical than my rightist friends (who are pretty much centrists) so maybe that's why they're more vocal.
I mean, part of it's also probably because 2016 trump lost the popular vote by millions, y'know? Stateside there's legit grievance on that sort of issue, where multiple times in the last few decades POTUS elections have gone GOP despite not being who the american people actually voted for. It's easier to get loud over stuff that's not being pulled out of someone's ass.

That said, yeah, this is the loudest (and most bloody insane) I've seen right-wing folks over election results in a while. Krakens, imaginary counties full of voter fraud, GOP political critters actually telling their base to knock it off with the death threats and crap for once, shit's been fairly wild as post elections go. Not necessarily unexpected with how trump and the republicans have been doing messaging for a while now, but still wild.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42456 on: December 02, 2020, 01:42:19 pm »

Would you like to debate, McTraveller? You seem like a nice person to debate with.

And, I think that, by the left, you may be referring to Authoritarian Leftists. I'm an Anarchist-Communist, which basically means I oppose all structures that unneccessarily restrict the rights and freedoms of the individual, combined with the communist beliefs of worker-owned means of production and replacement of money with people assisting each other. There are a lot of other leftists who believe things like this, such as Syndicalists, Social Democrats and some Individualist Anarchists.

I can debate, but I'm often wrong  ;D

One question I have about the "communist" concept of worker-owned means of production is - how is that different from companies today where workers own controlling shares in the company?  What makes it different?  I've often suspected one approach to UBI is to say that any company that has stock must have some portion of it owned "by the public", including dividend rights, where the dividends go straight into the public revenue, instead of through the complexity of the tax system.

I'm curious about the concept of "replacement of money with people assisting each other."  How do you avoid the downsides associated with barter?  This is an honest question - what would it look like? How do you ensure you have enough "unoccupied" houses in every location to facilitate people that want to move, for example?
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grave worm

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42457 on: December 02, 2020, 01:42:53 pm »

Would you like to debate, McTraveller? You seem like a nice person to debate with.

And, I think that, by the left, you may be referring to Authoritarian Leftists. I'm an Anarchist-Communist, which basically means I oppose all structures that unneccessarily restrict the rights and freedoms of the individual, combined with the communist beliefs of worker-owned means of production and replacement of money with people assisting each other. There are a lot of other leftists who believe things like this, such as Syndicalists, Social Democrats and some Individualist Anarchists.
I consider myself a social democrat (bordering on democratic socialist) with technocratic elements. Run society based on science and rationality, and slowly abolish capitalism to both minimize chaos and destruction in the wake of a revolution, and allow people to adapt better.

I don't fully agree with anarchism but you guys have a point.

Good luck on slowly reforming away capitalism as the oceans of the world start boiling over and equatorial regions that house billions of people are turned into inhospitable wastelands. And all the warm fuzzy liberal democracies where for now at least there's even a scintilla of political will for social democratic programs will morph into fascist fortresses (already happening) to keep out all the masses of poor brown people fleeing heat waves that cook your internal organs if you're outside. The only thing left to do is industrial sabotage I dunno write to your congressperson I guess.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42458 on: December 02, 2020, 01:47:12 pm »

Yeah, can confirm my rightist friends have been ranting about how it's all going to be fine in January when Trump uses his secret evidence that proves he really won.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42459 on: December 02, 2020, 01:53:16 pm »

Yeah, can confirm my rightist friends have been ranting about how it's all going to be fine in January when Trump uses his secret evidence that proves he really won.

The real october surprise is that the october surprise is coming in january.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42460 on: December 02, 2020, 02:01:56 pm »

I'm interested in the way Small Government Republicanism overlaps with the Anarcho-Communism (more the Anarcho half, obviously). It applies more to the personal rights that rich (and corporate) individuals suggest don't need to be infringed (unless that's the right not to be deemed a publisher for subscriber comments?), than actual everyday rights... though there's a fringe who seem to think it should be absolute...  but it sounds a bit like the whole thing about Atheists "just believing in one less god than you" could be extended to cover the differences in this area. ;)
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MorleyDev

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42461 on: December 02, 2020, 02:09:06 pm »

I'm a 'capitalism with regulatory safe-guards, protections and support structures' Keynesian-style leftist.  Which I think probably covers most of the 'left' that gets referred to by news media and I could swear used to make me a centralist but here we are.

So tax the wealthy to fund programs to give mobility and protection to the not-wealthy, including free education, free healthcare, and welfare systems, and infrastructure development. The true means of production.

These then allow for a more agile workforce capable of transitioning between careers easier as well as providing more educated higher quality employees which benefits businesses long-term. Support for those unable to work due to illness or disability, be it mental or physical, is also a moral duty of society and a role of the state is to protect and fulfil such moral duties of society.

Regulations and Unions combined to reduce, alleviate and counteract climate damage and protect citizens (so both the consumers and employees for Capitalism) as modern Capitalism alone is too focused on short-term gains, the next quarter but not the next decade, so there is a need for state-driven regulation and support structures to balance this out and ensure long-term success.

Salary is not a measure of success or worth, but perceived ease-of-replacement by your employer. From the POV of a business, the 'working class' are really better described as the 'replaceable class' and the first to go as we automate more. This means as automation increases and we reach the point where you have more workers than jobs due to the replacement of basic workers with the welfare system can then be expanded into a basic living income and new systems can start to emerge.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 02:21:21 pm by MorleyDev »
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feelotraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42462 on: December 02, 2020, 02:55:40 pm »

Whenever people start talking about 'the economy' I can't help but think of Rosebud from Citizen Kane.  But that's just me I guess.  :P

It seems a certain section of society is never able to get over primitive acculumatism and commodity fetishism - why the fuck they got to take us down with them?
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42463 on: December 02, 2020, 03:03:57 pm »

I'm a 'capitalism with regulatory safe-guards, protections and support structures' Keynesian-style leftist.  Which I think probably covers most of the 'left' that gets referred to by news media and I could swear used to make me a centralist but here we are.

So tax the wealthy to fund programs to give mobility and protection to the not-wealthy, including free education, free healthcare, and welfare systems, and infrastructure development. The true means of production.

These then allow for a more agile workforce capable of transitioning between careers easier as well as providing more educated higher quality employees which benefits businesses long-term. Support for those unable to work due to illness or disability, be it mental or physical, is also a moral duty of society and a role of the state is to protect and fulfil such moral duties of society.

Regulations and Unions combined to reduce, alleviate and counteract climate damage and protect citizens (so both the consumers and employees for Capitalism) as modern Capitalism alone is too focused on short-term gains, the next quarter but not the next decade, so there is a need for state-driven regulation and support structures to balance this out and ensure long-term success.

Salary is not a measure of success or worth, but perceived ease-of-replacement by your employer. From the POV of a business, the 'working class' are really better described as the 'replaceable class' and the first to go as we automate more. This means as automation increases and we reach the point where you have more workers than jobs due to the replacement of basic workers with the welfare system can then be expanded into a basic living income and new systems can start to emerge.

Those sound good - and I like the goals.  But "tax the right to give free education" doesn't give you free education - it gives you "education funded by the rich." Without cultural changes to make the rich happy to do this, it's likely going to breed resentment and class-divide issues.

Also - "allow for a more agile workforce capable of transitioning between careers..." sounds like a great goal, but what does that mean? Also, why do we care to "benefit businesses long-term" - don't we want to benefit all of society, not just businesses?  What would this look like? Does it mean UBI so you can just quit your job and go to school and learn something else? Should society fund "career students"? These are the questions that are less obvious to address.  Or do you just say "yeah, there are enough people that aren't just going to live off UBI that it will all work, so we can tolerate the portion of people who do just sit there without producing anything."

For that's what ultimate communism says - that the portion of society that does produce, does it efficiently enough that it can support the "non productive" (injured, young, those that choose to do nothing) in a resource-efficient manner, in a way that doesn't collapse due to disrepair.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42464 on: December 02, 2020, 03:06:00 pm »

Whenever people start talking about 'the economy' I can't help but think of Rosebud from Citizen Kane.  But that's just me I guess.  :P

I think of the comet event in Europa Universalis IV.  Essentially a comet is sighted by your people and its seen as a bod omen by your people.  There's a bunch of excuses you can make but either way you lose a stability point, one of the excuses is "The economy, fools!"
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