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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3535280 times)

Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46230 on: September 17, 2021, 04:55:05 pm »

Anti-Jew sentiment dates back mostly to Holy Roman Empire times, where the Jewish population was essentially forced into the roles of money lending, money changing, and proto-banking as any "God-fearing Christian" would never take on such a "dirty, unchristian" profession.

This, of course, led to the consequence of family-generational businesses of, you guessed it, Jewish bankers. So when monetary issues came about, it was easy to blame a group of people for their problems. This is where all the "greedy jew" fairytales and memes come from. Because they were the only bankers, because banking was seen as unchristian during a time of Christian supremacy of Europe.

As with so many other aspects, this is a later evolution - the association between Jews and forbidden usury didn't really exist until it was created as an excuse to loot and expel the English Jews in the 1200s. The core cause has much more to do with Jews being a very visible minority that was common enough to point to but not common enough to be dangerous to fight.


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By the by. "Jews killed Jesus" was official stance of the Catholic church until the 1960's.

Much more complicated than that. The Catholic Church rejected the Jewish Deicide entirely as of the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, but blamed the Crucifixtion on "wicked humanity" as a whole as far back as the Council of Trent in the 1500s. There have been factions in the Church that have embraced the Deicide theory the entire time (most of these reject Vatican II, of course), up to and including some Popes, but it has not been a monolithic long-term position for the institution as a whole.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46231 on: September 17, 2021, 05:18:19 pm »

And, once again, European anti-semitism is mainly not because of Christianity -- many Popes worked to make to make European kings and lords treat Jews better and praised those who were tolerant, such as the early reconquista kings in Spain. The "religious" reasons for the hate are post-hoc (Correct me if that does not mean what I think it does) justifications for an already felt hatred, not something that stems from religious dogma. Which is also why it perseveres without religion and even finds hold in followers of outright anti-religious ideologies such as socialism.
I don't know where I stand on this, but I do know you used "post-hoc" correctly. 

I like hearing about history but I've done little serious study of it, so I've been happy to observe this exchange.

On the one hand, Christian doctrine does describe the Jewish Pharisees rejecting Jesus and playing a serious role in his harassment and eventual death.  And even if that wasn't part of core Christian scripture, Judaism seems like a particularly sore thumb for Christianity.  The parent religion, a people specifically chosen by God and canonically often in contact, don't believe in the Christian Messiah who suddenly belongs to all people.

If common people really cared about theological arguments, I'd say the above would explain things.  But people invent theological disagreements and ignore others, to serve their preconceptions.  It seems like there's a much more primal reason:  The Jewish people, and the Roma, and countless other cultural minorities have always faced persecution for being minorities.

(also the usury thing in Christian states)
But I'm talking out my butt.  Much like modern antisemites.  The history doesn't matter, the doctrine doesn't matter, any minority group will do.  Some people have to take the blame and be the enemy both omnipotent-and-pathetic, machinator of every personal difficulty in some individual's life.

(Kinda like how I talk about the rich, sometimes?  Except I know Jeff Bezos didn't invent capitalism, and it's not an ethnicity.  It's a few-centuries-old system that needs to end, not the mortals currently sitting on top.)
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Gentlefish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46232 on: September 17, 2021, 06:03:23 pm »

Dam, I got Lord Sh-owned-us

Random_Dragon

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46233 on: September 17, 2021, 06:09:07 pm »

Bit of a tangent, but returning to the subject of Ancient Rome's interaction with the Jewish people before the spread of Christianity, it's a fairly interesting topic. While the Roman state was generally prone to getting along with other religions, there still tended to be friction when it came to monotheistic religions. Religion in antiquity was an important part of the social fabric, and religious tolerance no doubt influenced by the concept of Pax Deorum, the idea that it was in the interest of the Roman state to appease the gods whenever feasible. So when you have a monotheistic group that rather strongly refuses to partake in public festivals and respect the other gods, on top of the political complications that influenced Roman policies towards Judea...

Judea, prior to its absorption by the then-Republic, was a kingdom that had previously won autonomy from the Selucid Empire. After a similar period of religious strife involving a Hellenic empire's interactions with its monotheistic subjects, slowly but surely the Hasmonean Kingdom found itself practically the only part of the Mediterranean not under Roman control. Politically this meant they were a kingdom smack dab in the middle of what would be a very useful route connecting Aegyptum, now Rome's breadbasket, with other important parts of it. A kingdom sandwiched between two sides of an Empire (and Republic, during earlier parts of all this goings-on) that considered an important part of its history being the deposing of the Roman kings, and who had already not long ago had a fun time dealing with the political strife of the Hellenic pharaohs of the Ptolemaic Kingdom.

Needless to say, even if there wasn't religious strife, Rome's gotta Rome and the direct rule of Judea was the logical conclusion for the Roman Empire's growing influence over the whole of the Mediterranean world. Imagine the parallels and worries someone living in that time and place might have, their independent kingdom replaced with a puppet of yet another empire, one with yet another polytheistic religion as a major factor in the fabric of its everyday society. Someone with a knowledge of their history would likely compare it either to the period under the Neo-Babylonian Empire ending in the intervention of the Achaemenid Empire, or the far more recent Maccabean Revolt against the Selucids.

Hence the Siccarii and the Zealots, various competing schools of thought all concerned with the potential fate of Judea and its people. Religious groups also arguing that the Second Temple and the Pharisees were corrupt at best, and actively serving as Quislings to pagan overlords at worst. Eventually this growing political and religious friction culminated in the Great Revolt and the beginning of the Diaspora period.

A few fragments of this historical context can be seen having an influence on early Christianity. Those early writings can generally be traced back to people writing of their experiences and thoughts not just decades after the time period they described, but in the context of having subsequently lived to see the aftermath of trying to repeat the successes of the Maccabean Revolt, and seeing it completely fail. As far as those early founders and Rome itself was concerned at the time, these early Christians were just yet more Jews now scattered across the Empire, just a group who idolized a random anti-Roman activist who advocated a non-violent approach to resistance against Rome.

Over the course of the next couple centuries, with the Jewish people no longer considered a nuisance to the Roman Empire, and with the religion becoming more well-entrenched and recognized as something that's been around for a fair while, concessions gradually began to be made so that Judaism could co-exist and the Pax Deorum could be maintained. But all while this was happening, that one small sect was still spreading and still growing, and drifting apart from the rest of Judaism until the average Roman citizen, and a good number of converts to that new religion, couldn't even tell that they shared a common origin with Judaism.



Enter Diocletian.

Following the Third Century Crisis, Diocletian sought to bring the Empire back from the brink, enacting a host of reforms that would help keep the Roman Empire going just that little bit longer (and one of many things that'd help ensure the Eastern Roman Empire would one day live to see the medieval period from beginning to end). He sought to save Rome and help bring it back to the glory of the old days. And being an adherent to the old faith, that included maintaining the Pax Deorum.

Judaism was given a pass by this point in time, being both well-established and not really seen as a threat to the social order or the Pax Deorum. Not like those Christians, who were up to largely the same shenanigans Judea had been up to in centuries past, only now it was across the whole of the Empire. And thus began the last and largest persecution of Christians, and the only one actively mandated from the top-down, from the Emperor himself. The closest Rome had gotten to this beforehand was Nero, who blamed Christians for the fire of Rome and fanned the flames (pun intended) of others willing to get some good ol' fashioned persecution done, but didn't go so far as to sign a law demanding it be done.

And the humorous thing here, something bordering on irony perhaps? Another bit of historical context you can see glimpses of in the Christian bible was the argument among early Christians over the question of, essentially, how Judaic Christianity should be. The answer eventually proved to be "not very" and this arguably proved useful towards ensuring its spread among the Empire, making it more attractive to the Gentiles. To the point where Christians were afforded none of the exemptions Judaism was allowed, not just because they were troublemakers but because the average Roman could barely make the connection between the two anymore. The very thing that allowed early Christianity to spread left it vulnerable to the closest it ever came to extinction.

And this concludes your daily dose of history memes. Apologies if this is a bit long-winded, or if I glossed over or borked a few details.

Tune in next time for episodes covering topics such as:
1. Constantine deciding that not declaring Christianity legal might be useful for maintaining Pax Deorum.
2. Theodosius declaring all that Pax Deorum stuff to be bollocks and outlawing the old faiths.
3. The fall of the Western Roman Empire perhaps being a sign that Theodosius was dead wrong about the Pax Deorum.
4. The Eastern Roman Empire leaving the above question a bit harder to answer, or: Why The Medieval Period Began And Ended With The Fall Of The Roman Empire

EDIT: Couple typo fixes here and there.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 06:15:01 pm by Random_Dragon »
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Laterigrade

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46234 on: September 17, 2021, 06:17:21 pm »

All this Rome stuff’s much better than the question of packing politically-significant people into small spaces, a question normally only considered by kidnappers.

Thanks for the history lesson, Random_Dragon. I’ve always been interested in how religion and empires — both things that theoretically want themselves to be the main focus of your life — coexist (or, of course, don’t).
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delphonso

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46235 on: September 17, 2021, 06:21:00 pm »

On the one hand, Christian doctrine does describe the Jewish Pharisees rejecting Jesus and playing a serious role in his harassment and eventual death.  And even if that wasn't part of core Christian scripture, Judaism seems like a particularly sore thumb for Christianity.  The parent religion, a people specifically chosen by God and canonically often in contact, don't believe in the Christian Messiah who suddenly belongs to all people.

The context in which the New Testament was (probably) written is enough to explain this: consider Christianity a new direction for the Jewish Temple. Anyone who resists the change would be painted in a negative light, obviously. Protestants consider Catholics idolizers, and there is probably something similar with Islam and Christianity. It just makes sense if you're starting a sect.

Also shout out to Ameripol for being really slow for a month or two and then immediately popping off with constant topic sliding - some things never change.

scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46236 on: September 17, 2021, 06:41:13 pm »

The Eastern Roman Empire leaving the above question a bit harder to answer, or: Why The Medieval Period Began And Ended With The Fall Of The Roman Empire

Being from where I am from I must insist that the medieval era starts in 1066 with the failed invasion of England and ends in 1523 with the breakup of the Kalmar Union but I must also admit that that was a great way to phrase it and I am definitely going to repeat that at some point
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46237 on: September 17, 2021, 08:08:39 pm »

[...]starts in 1066 with the failed invasion of England [...]
Yeah, but if it weren't for your Harald, 'our'[1] Harold might have not been so hard pressed as to have fallen to Bill The Bastard after rushing across half the kingdom he had just inherited/stolen.

Of course, bad luck might still have happened (toxophillic shock syndrome to the eye, or not) as might bad battle discipline (his troops being baited off his shield-wallable high-ground, by accident or design) but it's an interesting thought experiment.

It might not have worked out for your team, but it probably helped a fellow nor(th)man out significantly.

(For the sake of AmeriPol purposes, I must state that there was likely little effect upon the (say) Piscataway people, or whoever actually preceded them at this point in time, in pre-Columbian history around the Potomac and future-DC area. Probably still Algonquian in the larger scale of things, from a quick (non-exhaustive) look at known facts about the region. And I don't think 'your lot' got that far down into the Skræling's lands, did they?)


[1] Given my presumed heritage (truthfully far from fully researched, anywhere near that far back over the intervening millenium-and-a-bit, and big assumptions even then when patronyms have to serve in leiu of any handy scribblings on vellum that were probably never reliably made in the first place), 'my' guy at the time might actually have been Malcolm III (just two successions after Macbeth himself!) or even Harold G's wayward brother (and Harald H fanboy) Tostig. Depending upon exactly when and where my root(s) happened to be at that instant.
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Sirus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46238 on: September 17, 2021, 09:13:01 pm »

Start a "History of Antisemitism" thread or something, folks. This stopped having much to do with American politics quite a while back.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46239 on: September 17, 2021, 09:37:24 pm »

To bring the very informative history back around, then:  Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene is perpetuating a long history of anti-semitic hate which indirectly leads to hate crimes.  Georgia should recall her, and it's absolutely disgusting that ~94% of house Republicans FELL.  IN.  LINE.

She's also getting people killed by spreading anti-mask nonsense, which I care about even though it's Republicans falling for it.  Because I'm not a psychopath like her.

Edit: Reminder that she believes that Teh Jews started wildfires with an orbital space laser, and supported the riot where her colleagues (INCLUDING REPUBLICANS who offended Trump) fled in terror from armed assailants.  And yet 201 House Republicans decided "Actually it's important that this person sit on important policy committees".  Because they're so non-partisan and would never "fall in line".
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 09:43:03 pm by Rolan7 »
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LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46240 on: September 17, 2021, 10:43:27 pm »

Ameripol thread eh? Come for the deranged politicians, stay for the Jew space laser sharks.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46241 on: September 18, 2021, 03:41:31 am »

France has withdrawn it's ambassadors from the US (and from Australia), because of the unexpected new AUKUS pact between the US, Australia and the UK.
The new pact includes the US sharing nuclear submarine technology with Australia, and supplying Australia with nuclear submarines.
This has cancelled a deal between France and Australia, that would supply Australia with modern, yet non-nuclear submarines, of which the importance was repeated just two weeks ago when Macron met with the Australian PM Scott Morrison. The deal involved 35 billion euros, of which 8 billion was going to France.

France is outraged. They called the US secretly negotiating the safety pact without informing the EU Trumpian behaviour.
It is not unlikely involved manufacturers will sue Australia for billions.

The EU is also not pleased being caught by surprise and having been completely left out of the loop on this new safety pact.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46242 on: September 18, 2021, 03:56:36 am »

I think Macron might be looking at this all wrong.

France supplies non-nuclear hulls.
The US supplies nuclear TECHNOLOGY. (eg, plans, parts, and supply chain for nuclear powered subs)

AU says " YAY! Hulls AND engines! WOOT!"

Instead, Macron seems to be all "STOLE MY THUNDER! MADE MY DEAL LOOK LESS IMPORTANT! RAGE!"
Admittedly, that's just how I seem to be perceiving this on a cursory, "did not dig that deeply" level.

More diplomatically-- this DOES have the obvious trappings of "US totally more buddy buddy with the UK post-brexit, than with the EU, which can go fuck itself when it comes to nuclear tech. UK and AU are OUR political trophy wives, bitches!", which I can see Macron being legitimately upset about.

However, if that is what he is upset about, he should grow a pair, and outright say that is what has his little striped french knickers in a twist.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 04:01:05 am by wierd »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46243 on: September 18, 2021, 04:45:06 am »

Meanwhile, the UK gets to boast it's wearing its Big Boy Pants now! (For not really much more benefit SFAICT, most likely acting as a broker between Down Under and Cross The Pond was a backroom deal added to speed up  the ostensibly separate post-EU trade negotiations that many in the UK haven't even been pleased about.)

There's a boast that it'll "create hundreds of jobs" (possibly cybersecurity), which isn't really that much (and wasn't even specified as British jobs!) as it basically creates a Three Eyes alternative to the current Five Eyes cooperation (can't see that causing tensions, like annoying even the Canadians, right?).

I'm really not sure what part we played, other than to be in the room and get to bask in some form of reflected glory/fill up on the buffet lunch. Probably the most significant parts are deathly secrets that would not be (publicly) mentioned, anyway.


And China is using strong language. Not sure if it's their serious intention or just because they feel they need to. I must go and check if these are just Nuclear Submarines or also Nuclear-Armed Submarines.

Regardless, there seems to be an On The Beach feeling in AU against any local nuclear facilities, even ostensibly civil ones. Maybe that even means that Faslane, or its post-Scexit replacement, will be one of the possible refuelling stations, every few years as needed?
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #46244 on: September 18, 2021, 05:19:37 am »

So, apparently Nicki Minaj tweeted against the vaccine mandate because her cousin's friend in Trinidad claims his balls got swollen after getting his shot, so Tucker Carlson defended her on air and she says she's been invited to talk at the White House where she's going to wear all pink like in Legally Blonde to let them know she means business and honestly I feel like half of this was written by procedural generation.
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