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What is paradox?

Clausewitz games (EU-likes)
- 4 (80%)
Anything made by Paradox (also Legion, Diplomacy etc.)
- 0 (0%)
The two main universes (EU and Ardania)
- 0 (0%)
Anything Paradox ever touched (Svea Rike through Tyranny)
- 0 (0%)
It's that thing where that barber shaves people no one will shave, innit?
- 1 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Voting closed: February 10, 2017, 11:49:11 pm


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Author Topic: Paradox General Thread- Victorian Crusader Universalis: Heart of Stellaris  (Read 9725 times)

scriver

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I played ck2 without DLC for years on end and there's absolutely nothing missing there. It's a full games worth on its own, and was from the start.

My main disappointment with the game is that Johan outright confirmed it's being built as a Map Painter. Sure, it could be a very good Map Painter game, but I guess I don't want that.
Paradox has never not made a map painter.

The tragedy is the loss of the ambition to be something more. A history simulator (original EUs and similar), an alternative history simulator (later EUs and similar), a character driven alternative history simulator (CK and the original EU:R). The ambition to go beyond "just a map painter" is what has put Paradox above other developers in the same scene, it's why I've become a Paradox fanboy, and I would say it is likely also why Paradox have eched out a niche while the entire rest of the Grand Strategy genre has withered and died.

That's why it's both sad and worrying to see a lead developer say "it's a map painter". It's something they've always said they want to be more than in the past.
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ZeroGravitas

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I played ck2 without DLC for years on end and there's absolutely nothing missing there. It's a full games worth on its own, and was from the start.

Mostly yes, though it was pretty rough around the edges. The ERE worked like a feudal realm; the Abbasid caliphate was depicted as controlling the Seljuqs, because Paradox hadn't worked out the religious titles yet; there was no accurate depiction of merchant republics; there were no practical limitations on things like "I'll just have all my vassals be archbishops".

So yeah, it was good on its own, but it was kind of a mess once you started picking at it.

Quote
My main disappointment with the game is that Johan outright confirmed it's being built as a Map Painter. Sure, it could be a very good Map Painter game, but I guess I don't want that.
Paradox has never not made a map painter.

The tragedy is the loss of the ambition to be something more. A history simulator (original EUs and similar), an alternative history simulator (later EUs and similar), a character driven alternative history simulator (CK and the original EU:R). The ambition to go beyond "just a map painter" is what has put Paradox above other developers in the same scene, it's why I've become a Paradox fanboy, and I would say it is likely also why Paradox have eched out a niche while the entire rest of the Grand Strategy genre has withered and died.

That's why it's both sad and worrying to see a lead developer say "it's a map painter". It's something they've always said they want to be more than in the past.

just the opposite. Johan has always thought of the EU series as "Risk on crack". what has put them above other developers of history-based games is attention to detail and immersion. not an accurate simulation or even a real attempt to accurately simulate anything. they are all map-painters, and they only vary based on whether the "Sandbox" or the "Railroad" faction within Paradox is winning the meta debate.

ironically, I would say that paradox most seriously screwed up when they tried to leave the history subgenre with Stellaris, but that's also where Creative Assembly finally got good again: Warhammer (and 2) is absurdly flavorful and good, while Stellaris is basically unfinished and Paradox has no idea what to do with it.
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Greenbane

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ironically, I would say that paradox most seriously screwed up when they tried to leave the history subgenre with Stellaris, but that's also where Creative Assembly finally got good again: Warhammer (and 2) is absurdly flavorful and good, while Stellaris is basically unfinished and Paradox has no idea what to do with it.

Yeah... I've bounced right off Stellaris thrice now (last time just after Utopia), and feel disinclined to keep buying DLC when they don't seem to add anything meaningful. It seems most of the DLC material is centered on the late game, when the mid game is essentially a gaping chasm.

After the initial settlement of your galactic neighbourhood, the game really loses momentum, and you're only left with incrementally improving your colonies and tech, and perhaps warring against the occasional nearby species. On a whim, since war is so lackluster and often unnecessary.

So I'm not really all that interested in apocalyptic weapons or ultimate mega-projects when the game's hold on me is lost ages prior to those things becoming viable/desirable.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 11:42:48 am by Greenbane »
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Cruxador

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ironically, I would say that paradox most seriously screwed up when they tried to leave the history subgenre with Stellaris, but that's also where Creative Assembly finally got good again: Warhammer (and 2) is absurdly flavorful and good, while Stellaris is basically unfinished and Paradox has no idea what to do with it.

Yeah... I've bounced right off Stellaris thrice now (last time just after Utopia), and feel disinclined to keep buying DLC when they don't seem to add anything meaningful. It seems most of the DLC material is centered on the late game, when the mid game is essentially a gaping chasm.

After the initial settlement of your galactic neighbourhood, the game really loses momentum, and you're only left with incrementally improving your colonies and tech, and perhaps warring against the occasional nearby species. On a whim, since war is so lackluster and often unnecessary.

So I'm not really all that interested in apocalyptic weapons or ultimate mega-projects when the game's hold on me is lost ages prior to those things becoming viable/desirable.
This might be a case of listening too much to the fans, actually. The Stellaris forums and modding community get quite enthused about doing things like that, in part (one assumes) because it's the only thing Stellaris is currently doing more or less right. I reckon that people who find the core gameplay to be inadequate are also less likely to spend time on the forums, and although there were definitely complaints about a weak midgame when the game was new, they've dried up now. Paradox may take this to mean that it's good enough, when in fact people are just tired of mucking about with inadequate improvements.

I do think the economic overhaul was a step in the right direction, though. If Stellaris had been as it is now when it launched, I would be optimistic for its future. I don't know enough about the new HNIC to know if optimism is reasonable at this point, though.
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Karnewarrior

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I've said for years now that what Stellaris needs is a story and a canon. The mistake was making the galaxy random and computer generated. You can't get weird scenarios like "Muslim Mexican Republic starting WWI in 1911 by declaring on the Fascist Dutch States of America" without an implication that Mexico is not Muslim, that America is neither fascist nor Dutch, or any other host of preassumptions.

Because every species in Stellaris is different every time, there's no repeat offenders, no titles to attach meaning to, and very few meme races outside of LP shenanigans. The AI has it's personality, but not only is it in your face when in the other titles it would be implied, it's also pretty generic. The lack of repeating characters means nobody cares that the Horian Empire conquered Uxanaka V, while people might be tickled to find that France somehow took Ryukyu from Japan.
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Greenbane

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I reckon that people who find the core gameplay to be inadequate are also less likely to spend time on the forums, and although there were definitely complaints about a weak midgame when the game was new, they've dried up now. Paradox may take this to mean that it's good enough, when in fact people are just tired of mucking about with inadequate improvements.

This might be the case. I've participated on most official PDX subforums, but not Stellaris' since I've never felt invested in it.

You might be on to something with the assumption people who just don't like the core gameplay have moved on. I certainly have. We're not talking about a great game with a few glaring flaws, which passionate fans might be vocal about. Instead, this is just an OK game, certainly the lesser of the main grand strategy line, with lackluster gameplay in general, and therefore it's unlikely to awaken the same feelings from a significant portion of the playerbase.

Karnewarrior is also right about PDX's underestimation of the historical anchor all its other major games have. The result in Stellaris is indeed an ocean of genericness which is ultimately reminiscent of the average procedurally generated game. It's very hard to make such universes interesting.
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Kot

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I hope the of in the title stands for March of the Eagles.
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Kot finishes his morning routine in the same way he always does, by burning a scale replica of Saint Basil's Cathedral on the windowsill.

scriver

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We also need to add Imperiumator to it now.

Unless the Universalis stands for Europa Universalis: Rome?
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Cruxador

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We also need to add Imperiumator to it now.

Unless the Universalis stands for Europa Universalis: Rome?
The subtitle could be "Stellar Iron Imperator".
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Urist McScoopbeard

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We also need to add Imperiumator to it now.

Unless the Universalis stands for Europa Universalis: Rome?
The subtitle could be "Stellar Iron Imperator".
Ironically, that is 100% the title of my band.
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This conversation is getting disturbing fast, disturbingly erotic.

EuchreJack

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I'm worried that Imperator will be the next Stellaris.  After all, their previous game in the setting didn't take off.  I mean, they really want to avenge that failure and the fans want them to avenge that failure, but if it doesn't work, we might have the next Sengoku (I'm still pissed to have payed for what was a beta-test of Crusader Kings 2).

I think I'm going to see where Imperator: Rome falls in the spectrum.

I still fiddle with Stellaris from time to time.  The latest update at least poured some life into it.
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I think the word you were looking for is "monster".

Cruxador

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I'm worried that Imperator will be the next Stellaris.  After all, their previous game in the setting didn't take off.  I mean, they really want to avenge that failure and the fans want them to avenge that failure, but if it doesn't work, we might have the next Sengoku (I'm still pissed to have payed for what was a beta-test of Crusader Kings 2).

I think I'm going to see where Imperator: Rome falls in the spectrum.

I still fiddle with Stellaris from time to time.  The latest update at least poured some life into it.
Considering the way they've been pushing it, Imperator is clearly not meant to be a test game like Sengoku or March of the Eagles - or indeed, like they may have intended Stellaris to be before it blew up. If a game on this scale didn't meet a certain minimum floor, it would instead be the next East vs West.
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ZeroGravitas

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watching florryworry play it on twitch right now - it looks pretty awful. merc spam worse than eu4, along with all the same bs war and peace system... hoping to see something of redeeming value here.

 (also the super gamma glow map and white UI features... i can feel my retina burning away...)
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Trolldefender99

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watching florryworry play it on twitch right now - it looks pretty awful. merc spam worse than eu4, along with all the same bs war and peace system... hoping to see something of redeeming value here.

 (also the super gamma glow map and white UI features... i can feel my retina burning away...)

Even if its "bad" at launch, I'm gonna buy it anyway :(

I enjoy every single Paradox game. The only exception is I didn't like Stellaris at launch, but after a year I went back and its now my 3rd most played Paradox game (behind EU4 and Victoria 2). I enjoyed CK2 as well, got almost 100 hours out of it and it was only one I felt like I personally "finished" the game.

Paradox hasn't really made a bad game for me, and the one I didn't like at launch got better over time.

(not related to the quote, but seen people on steam complaining about future DLC)

Personally. I like how they keep updating their games like an MMO would, with continuous updates instead of abandoning it for the next title. Though I know some don't like that approach since a lot of good stuff ends up locked in DLC. I like it just cause at least for EU4, there is always new content. A lot of games make a couple DLC and give up and move on to the next 60 dollar game. I'm sure paradox could have made more money re-releasing slightly different versions of EU4 like how some games re-release with just a few changes. I'd rather instead of a few changes (whether big or small), it would be DLC instead of re-releasing with a full priced newly released title. And that is what Paradox does. And for some reason there is a group of people who don't like that approach and rather keep buying new titles with only a few changes. Dunno, the latter seems more expensive as a consumer to me and makes me not want to buy a game when its mostly the same as their previous title.

And I like that a game can last for years that isn't an MMO. Like Skyrim. Imagine if it was updated with DLC for as long as EU4 has been supported. There'd be so much content and stuff to do, it would last so long (ignoring mods) compared to 3 dlc and that is it. Same with Witcher 3, eventually it just ends with no new content. Sure the 3 dlc were great, but they still end. Where as, EU4 is still fresh with content and still supported today. Can't think of many companies that have that support.

Though I do understand the other side sees it as being "forced" to use DLC, because content gets locked out without that DLC. That is a big negative side effect of that method. Personally though, I still think its worth that trade off to have a continually updated and continually supported game.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 10:17:12 pm by Trolldefender99 »
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Trolldefender99

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That aside (sorry for double post, above post was a bit long)

Knowing how moddable Imperator: Rome is, is pretty amazing. Quill18 said (from first video I finished of his let's play) its going to be most moddable paradox game yet. That is pretty amazing, that they are doing a lot for their modders. Don't see that much these days.
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