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What is paradox?

Clausewitz games (EU-likes)
- 4 (80%)
Anything made by Paradox (also Legion, Diplomacy etc.)
- 0 (0%)
The two main universes (EU and Ardania)
- 0 (0%)
Anything Paradox ever touched (Svea Rike through Tyranny)
- 0 (0%)
It's that thing where that barber shaves people no one will shave, innit?
- 1 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Voting closed: February 10, 2017, 11:49:11 pm


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Author Topic: Paradox General Thread- Victorian Crusader Universalis: Heart of Stellaris  (Read 23301 times)

ZeroGravitas

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wouldn't be a paradox map if india wasn't way, way too small
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scriver

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We should be happy the map doesn't look like this!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Culise

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I wonder; a map like that could be rather stylish.  Maybe something that rips off Posidonius or Ptolemy.


EDIT: Actually, aesthetically speaking, I did like the old EU maps.  I mean, even if the provinces or landforms weren't always the best...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 06:45:14 pm by Culise »
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ZeroGravitas

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I wonder; a map like that could be rather stylish.  Maybe something that rips off Posidonius or Ptolemy.


EDIT: Actually, aesthetically speaking, I did like the old EU maps.  I mean, even if the provinces or landforms weren't always the best...

it's a similar problem actually

like they get that arabian peninsula is big, but indian subcontinent should be 50% larger, or about the size of 6 frances

it's just so fucking dumb.

honestly i'm really losing interest in paradox games, especially after the debacle that stellaris has been. 2 years to implement a bunch of shit that was immediately obvious on release (e.g. tiles are garbage).

if clausewitz games can't be bothered to implement a properly curved map with correct projections and area, fuck them. i'm done with their lazy shit.
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USEC_OFFICER

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Frustration festering and boiling and turning into something far worse?
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ZeroGravitas

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Don't blame Paradox, blame the projection. Specifically this one, which is the one they're probably using.

So, uh, yeah. It's a "correct projection" insomuch that it is an actual cartographic projection that they're using here. Not sure why you're losing your shit over this.

i don't know what's in that specific picture, but paradox generally uses a smashed-up edit of whatever they think works best, not anything recognizable.

just look at the eu4 map if you don't know what i mean.

because they regularly have deformation favoring northern hemispheres and arctics, i'm guessing they're actually closer to mercator, while NA/SA north in order to make tierra del fuego line up with cape of good hope on a straight line.

it's just nonsense.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 08:18:53 pm by ZeroGravitas »
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Cruxador

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The worst part is, these games are played on a computer, not a tabletop. There's literally no reason we can't have a globe.
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Culise

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The worst part is, these games are played on a computer, not a tabletop. There's literally no reason we can't have a globe.
To be fair, that's probably the precise reason the engine was designed with a two-dimensional map instead of a three-dimensional globe: Europa Universalis started life as a board game.  We've ended up stuck with that decision through both the Europa and Clausewitz engines; even Stellaris is fundamentally two-dimensional.  I wonder how much it would cost to rebuild the engine to render as a globe.  It wouldn't change the node-type province system any, so it'd be essentially cosmetic, but I wouldn't think it to be that easy. 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 09:21:51 pm by Culise »
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Karnewarrior

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I'd bet the hard part would be getting things to look not-silly when the map transitioned from 2D to 3D. Because actually playing on a globe might be too much for some people, like my father who I just found out thinks a quintillion isn't a real number.

Some people just can't into non-euclidean geometry. Best not to cut out part of the fanbase just because of some distortion. Make the indian provinces smaller and cram more in there, those are what matter anyway.
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USEC_OFFICER

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I wonder how much it would cost to rebuild the engine to render as a globe.  It wouldn't change the node-type province system any, so it'd be essentially cosmetic, but I wouldn't think it to be that easy.

For HoI4, CK2, EU4 and so on, the map is saved as a series of image files. This file has a bunch of coloured blobs that correspond to a province, that file has the terrain and so on. So converting that system to work with a globe would not be very easy, since things would have to stretch or be chopped off which would undoubtedly cause lots of headaches. Not to mention how it'd impact modding, which forms a not insignificant portion of Paradox's popularity.
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Tawa

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Imperator looking good there. I bought Rome I a little while back, and, uh. I dunno how I feel about it. My main issue is, well, imagine if your CKII court had about 100 people in it all of the time, and anytime anything happened to one of them--even someone you'd never heard of, who just has some minor senate position or something--you get a popup notification about it, just as big as if someone had declared war on you. Additionally, everybody's names are practically indistinguishable because they're all something like "Marcus Gaius Tarantum" or "Julius Gaius Usum" or "Usus Gusus Ususum".

Also, some fool recommended me Macedonia as a starter nation. Macedonia, as far as I can tell, has two options: brutally die at the hands of barbarians from Tylis, or gain barely any territory in the peace deal because the game has the EU4 pre-Art of War system where who gets what territory depends entirely on who occupied the province in the first place. (Additionally, the game's got a ridiculous system for gaining casus belli--the most reliable way to do it is order someone in an enemy country assassinated and hope the assassin gets executed.)

So a modernized version of Rome would be great. I'm not really that into Roman history (though I am currently periodically listening to Mike Duncan's History of Rome podcast,) but it's an interesting time period that definitely deserves a Paradox game. My main hope is that they go on to expand the game through the imperial period via expansions--the Republic is neat and all, but the Empire is where it's at, IMO.

India aside, also take a look at Carthage, specifically it's super thin coastline and it's teeny tiny holdings on the Massaesylian coast. Very small counties, or something new in the way of provinces?
From what I've heard, they're changing things so that each province has multiple cities in it--and you don't necessarily control all the cities in the province--to add another layer of granularity. Great move IMO, I just hope they optimize the game a little better than EU4 so that it can handle all those provinces.

E: In the screenshot, most of Iberia and almost everything northeast of Germania and the Danube is greyed out. Do you think it's terra incognita, uncolonized, or wasteland?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 12:24:41 am by Tawa »
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scriver

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E: In the screenshot, most of Iberia and almost everything northeast of Germania and the Danube is greyed out. Do you think it's terra incognita, uncolonized, or wasteland?

Terra incognita, probably - iirc EU:Rome had a "known world" system akin to EUs where you'd learn about the world through trade and over time.

"Uncolonised land" is another thing I didn't like about EU:R, though. The way they implemented it, that is.
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Teneb

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E: In the screenshot, most of Iberia and almost everything northeast of Germania and the Danube is greyed out. Do you think it's terra incognita, uncolonized, or wasteland?

Terra incognita, probably - iirc EU:Rome had a "known world" system akin to EUs where you'd learn about the world through trade and over time.

"Uncolonised land" is another thing I didn't like about EU:R, though. The way they implemented it, that is.
You can compare Iberia with Siberia, in the northeast of the screenshot. Siberia is dark grey while Iberia (and Africa) is light gray.
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Tawa

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Tbh, I feel like with uncolonized territory in EU: Rome, they had a point with it. If you're going to have a system where the "uncivilized people" are so weak you can just take their land instantly with the only threat being periodic border attacks, then it was only fair that they did it to most of the Gallic and German barbarians if they were going to do it to most of the native Americans in the main games.
E: In the screenshot, most of Iberia and almost everything northeast of Germania and the Danube is greyed out. Do you think it's terra incognita, uncolonized, or wasteland?

Terra incognita, probably - iirc EU:Rome had a "known world" system akin to EUs where you'd learn about the world through trade and over time.

"Uncolonised land" is another thing I didn't like about EU:R, though. The way they implemented it, that is.
You can compare Iberia with Siberia, in the northeast of the screenshot. Siberia is dark grey while Iberia (and Africa) is light gray.
I'd noticed that as well, but I wasn't sure if it meant something or if was just, like, a lighting difference or something like that.

My main point of confusion is Iberia, though. I'd figure it was just unexplored or uncolonized if it weren't for the fact that the Sahara is the same color. Doesn't make an awful lot of sense for 65% of Iberia to not exist, imo.
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scriver

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Somebody counted the amount of nations/states in southern Italy and Greece:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are a couple of mistakes like counting Carthaginian colonies several times but yeah, 50-ish sovereign entities in the region.

This Rock Paper Shotgun article states that there are 7000 cities and 400 playable states which sounds awesome. It also seems from what I've gleamed from things said that "cities" might be the new baseline counties or provinces of the game, which feels fitting.

It also says:
Quote
Though it has shed the name, Imperator is still a sequel to Europa Universalis: Rome, where nations are the focus, rather than dynasties. Instead of playing individuals across a bloodline, as you would in Crusader Kings, you’ll be taking command of city states, kingdoms and empires. In the south and east are superpowers and the legacies of Alexander, in the north there are countless squabbling tribes and then right in the middle of it all is the ambitious but initially weak Roman Republic.

“Countries not characters is my design philosophy,” says Andersson. “Henrik [Fåhraeus, Crusader Kings 2 game director] is more into characters.” That’s not to say that everything is abstracted or absent that human touch, however. These countries are still full of senators, generals, clan chiefs and various factions with special interests. While your end goal might be taking over as much of the world as you can, there’s still a lot of people management to do, whether that’s picking the best candidate for a governor position or dealing with your population of citizens and ethnic minorities.

...Which I am not as happy about. I feel that the proto-CK2 character aspect of EU:R was by far the best thing of the game and what made it stand out the most contra the EU3 it spun off of and what made the game fun. I have often thought to myself that you could see in EU:R the early stages of what would later be tried in Sengoku and applied in CK2.

It also feels like a bit of a slap against Fåhraeus because I remember how much he liked EU:R. I remember how he, after the the official development had been ceased on the game, he kept working to push out more patches in his off-work spare time just for the sake of the game (you see, EU:R was abandoned in an unfortunately shitty state where the latest patches had basically created a whole slew of fresh, game-breaking bugs). It felt a lot at the time like the game was his baby, so to speak.
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