Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Torchwood202]

Whenever I atttempt to create pottery, I get brickwalled by a rather absurd thing.

To make... lets say a jug... I would need "Clay" and a kiln. My problem is that "Clay" is an actual singular item and not the five different types of clay (Loam, Sandy, Peat...)

I can't use Sandy Clay or Clay Loam... I can only use "Clay". I can't figure out whether I can turn other clay types into just "Clay".

I know that Masterwork changes the pottery system a bit, so if someone could help, that'd be great.

[c0mplex]

I know that you are supposed to process those non-clay clay soils in a workshop first which gives you proper clay, however, I can't recall which workshop is used.

*Edit: Okay, I just checked. You need to build a pottery workshop first. Then you can sieve clay from other types of soil. You need to make a pottery workshop anyway since you have to shape the clay into whatever you are going to put into the kiln first.

[Torchwood202]

Within the pottery workshop, I can only sieve "Sandy Clay Loam" and "Silty Clay Loam" to get clay.

The only soil types I can find are "Sandy Clay", "Sandy Loam", "Clay Loam", "Silty Clay", etc... I cannot find a version of soil that contains all three words (Sandy. Clay. Loam.). I can only find soils that contain 2 of the 3 words.

Have I just not found the correct clay yet or am I missing something?

[Amostubal]

sorry to copy and paste on your post, common question answered often.... let me guess playing humans?  I'm not much into the clay industry... It aggravates me every time I try.

Hey, Meph. I'm playing the latest masterwork and I'm having some trouble with my clay industry. I have produced boulders of "silty clay", but cannot sieve them or use them directly in the pottery. Also, I have "silty clay loam" nearby that cannot be collected (does not count as clay in the zones selector). Any idea what's going on here?

If you really want to know whats going on here... check inside.... its a lot of reading as I cruised the raws for you.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

from the raws:
   [BUILDING:POTTERY:CUSTOM_ALT_A]<-Dwarf building
   [BUILDING:BRICKOVEN_KOBOLD:NONE]<- Kobold building
   [BUILDING:WORKSHOP_KOBOLD:NONE]<- Human building

secondly the entity file must have these reactions permitted:
[PERMITTED_REACTION:CLEAN_SANDY_CLAY_LOAM]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:CLEAN_SILTY_CLAY_LOAM]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:CLEAN_SANDY_LOAM]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:CLEAN_SILT_LOAM]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:CLEAN_LOAMY_SAND]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:CLEAN_LOAM]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:CLEAN_SILT]

Dwarves do!
Kobolds do which they should since all the reactions are suggested as tied to kobolds.
Humans don't.... and why I do not know why...  I'm not even sure if the building is functional... its one of those upgrade shop things, and I didn't even go far enough to verify that, but I have no reason to believe that it does if this main function isn't permitted in reactions.

Seeing that some people say they can't pick it up here's probably why from inorganic_stone_soil:

Code: [Select]

[INORGANIC:SILTY_CLAY]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SOIL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:silty clay][DISPLAY_COLOR:0:7:1][TILE:142]
[SOIL][REACTION_CLASS:CLAY]
[SOLID_DENSITY:1210] SCS = 5/50/45
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:FIRED_MAT:INORGANIC:CERAMIC_EARTHENWARE]

[INORGANIC:CLAY_LOAM]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SOIL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:clay loam][DISPLAY_COLOR:4:7:1][TILE:142]
[SOIL][REACTION_CLASS:CLAY]
[SOLID_DENSITY:1320] SCS = 33/34/33
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:FIRED_MAT:INORGANIC:CERAMIC_EARTHENWARE]

[INORGANIC:SANDY_CLAY_LOAM]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SOIL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:sandy clay loam][DISPLAY_COLOR:4:6:1][TILE:142]
[SOIL][AQUIFER]
[SOLID_DENSITY:1410] SCS = 60/25/15

[INORGANIC:SILTY_CLAY_LOAM]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SOIL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:silty clay loam][DISPLAY_COLOR:7:6:0][TILE:142]
[SOIL][AQUIFER]
[SOLID_DENSITY:1290] SCS = 10/30/60

its not set as a [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:FIRED_MAT:...] I wouldn't put INORGANIC:CERAMIC_EARTHENWARE try INORGANIC:SILTY_CLAY_LOAM ... didn't test it, but I'm sure that will make it acceptable as basic clay to be accessed by a collect clay command.  Peat which is in a separate file from these has a similar line. but not capable of being used as clay in any of the clay shops.  it should then be able to be sieved by the above reactions... if you are kobold or dwarf. 
additionally that change will require a generate new world as its adding a token to the file.

if you are human you need to add the [PERMIT_REACTION:...] group to your entity file.
if you are succubus or orc, you will need to add the [PERMIT_BUILDING:POTTERY] and [PERMIT_REACTION:...] group to your entity file.

in either case, you will probably want to be playing without aquifers... as these layers are highly suspect to be aquifer layers usually and will flood, making gathering clay impossible in the first place. Even if you clear the aquifer through various means, it generally will be by blocking off the "clay" wall which you will need to gather the clay.  hmmm maybe by having it drain into a lower aquifer zone, cavern, or into a tube to a fortified outer wall... I digress there's many ways to access aquifer zones without walling... but its a long and hard process that would take most embark sites months to be effective... and usually requires you to pierce the aquifer first to get beneath it and create drain passages... A lot of cheating required to do it effectively and efficiently.  your better off seeking other sources of clay, or sand if that's what you're after.

for your second problem of not being ably to use silty clay.... well that tells me you are in a dwarf, kobold, or human embark...  do you see the difference between these three reactions:

Code: [Select]

How the orcs make a clay jug:
[REACTION:CLAY_JUG_ORC]
    [NAME:Goblins shape a clay jug]
    [BUILDING:MUCKRAKER_GHETTO_ORC:CUSTOM_J]
    [REAGENT:clay:1:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE][HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:FIRED_MAT]
    [PRODUCT:100:1:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_JUG:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:clay:FIRED_MAT]
    [SKILL:STONECRAFT][FUEL]

How the Succubus make a clay jug:
[REACTION:MAKE_CLAY_JUG]
[NAME:make clay jug]
[BUILDING:KILN:CUSTOM_J]
[REAGENT:clay:1:BOULDER:NONE:NONE:NONE]
[HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:FIRED_MAT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_JUG:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:clay:FIRED_MAT]
[FUEL]
[SKILL:POTTERY]

How the Dwarves, Kobolds, and Humans make a clay jug:
[REACTION:DWARF_MAKE_CLAY_JUG]
[NAME:Shape jug from clay]
[CATEGORY:POTTERY_CLAY]
[CATEGORY_NAME:Clay Forming (Earthenware)]
[CATEGORY_KEY:CUSTOM_C]
[CATEGORY_DESCRIPTION:Form items from a clay boulder. These items are made of soft clay and can not be used until fired in a kiln.]
[BUILDING:BRICKOVEN_KOBOLD:NONE][BUILDING:POTTERY:NONE]
[BUILDING:WORKSHOP_KOBOLD:NONE]
[BUILDING:WORKSHOP_KOBOLD:NONE]
[REAGENT:clay:1:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:CLAY][HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:FIRED_MAT]was shaped_mat
[PRODUCT:100:1:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_JUG_FAKE:INORGANIC:GREENWARE_CLAY]
[SKILL:POTTERY]


besides being a bit showy... I never liked clay for most things because of how difficult it can be in dwarves, kobolds, and humans... fake it/dry it/glaze it etc etc etc I've been a potter, you can add all the steps you want to it... It takes a lot more than what is being described in any of the raws... but I digress, thats another argument. 
The reaction for Succubus says:    
  [REAGENT:clay:1:BOULDER:NONE:NONE:NONE][HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:FIRED_MAT][PRODUCT:100:1:TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_JUG:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:clay:FIRED_MAT]
Which basically means we don't care use any boulder that has FIRED_MAT... and don't let the player detail which it is... basically this is so generic that it will make jars out of peat and also operate to make stoneware and porcelain... but you can't select which stone the unit will pick up so its going to be a surprise.  no surprise this reaction would pick up a silty clay boulder and get to work on it.

The reaction for Orcs says the same thing, except: (and granted I think I modified it)
  [REAGENT:clay:1:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE]
Which like the above reaction allows the unit to make earthenware, stoneware, and porcelain... and peat items too lol.  But you can select in the details the "FIRED_MAT" boulder of your choice, so you could select silty clay and it would work or not select anything and it might choose it if it wanted to.

The reaction for dwarves, kobolds, and humans have an error most foul... most insidious... besides adding in the greenware step which is just silly to me:
  [REAGENT:clay:1:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:CLAY]
That one word was to force the group to split up all the clay materials into their basic constituent parts separating the actual clay... but with out a silty clay reaction to do so, you will never be able to use silty clay in an embark with this reaction.... if its not pure CLAY its not clay at all and this affects humans the most severe as they don't have any of the separation reactions permitted.

So to split Silty clay which is the one that is missing you need a reaction like this:

Code: [Select]

[REACTION:CLEAN_SILT_CLAY]
[NAME:Sieve silty clay(2)]
[DESCRIPTION:Takes 2 silty clay boulders and splits the components into silt and clay.]
[DESCRIPTION:]
[DESCRIPTION:Uses pottery skill.]
[BUILDING:POTTERY:CUSTOM_ALT_B]
[BUILDING:BRICKOVEN_KOBOLD:NONE]
[BUILDING:WORKSHOP_KOBOLD:NONE]
[REAGENT:silt loam:2:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:SILTY_CLAY]
[PRODUCT:100:1:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:CLAY]
[PRODUCT:100:1:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:SILT]
[SKILL:POTTERY]
add that reaction to the same area the others are in reactions_dwarf, add permit_reaction to the entity file for your race and regenerate a world and the next time you have that material you can do that.

My suggestion, if you don't want to regenerate a world with the added permissions from above....

just edit the reaction_kobold.txt file in your save folder and replace all of:
 [REAGENT:clay:1:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:CLAY]
with:
 [REAGENT:clay:1:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE]
and you will be able to use all clays as normal and you will be able to detail which clay to use... and it shouldn't require a new world generation as your not removing or adding tokens.

[Torchwood202]

I'm actually playing with dwarves. Nevertheless, I shall try what you said. Thanks!

[Amostubal]

yeah humans for some reason are missing permissions for all of the clay sieves....
dwarves have permission for the ones that are written, and to add aggravation.... the clay that can be sieved, can't be targeted for retrieval, so the reactions
are useless, unless a trader shows up with those clay(EXTREMELY HIGHLY UNLIKELY, you can't even request them from the trade liaison).

The code snip above will fix it for Dwarf and Kobold.   humans have an odd 'cheat' where they still have access to the old reactions that never were removed, but late in the game as they get use to using foreigner workshops... they come across the problem and its the same reactions that are fixed by that code snip.



Here's from my personal notes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]


###############################################
###########  On the subject of clay  ##########
###############################################
Soils           - collectable?          - sieve reaction?          - accessibility?
CLAY            - Can be clay collected - doesn't need sieve       - can be used by all races.
SILTY_CLAY      - Can be clay collected - no reactions             - current masterwork setup blocks usage for humans* dwarfs+ and kobolds+. succubus!/orcs@ have 0 problems.
SANDY_CLAY      - Can be clay collected - no reactions             - current masterwork setup blocks usage for humans* dwarfs+ and kobolds+. succubus!/orcs@ have 0 problems.
CLAY_LOAM       - Can be clay collected - no reactions             - current masterwork setup blocks usage for humans* dwarfs+ and kobolds+. succubus!/orcs@ have 0 problems.
SANDY_CLAY_LOAM - Can NOT be collected  - has sieve reaction       - ?dwarf/kibold access to reaction? - AQUIFER
SILTY_CLAY_LOAM - Can NOT be collected  - has sieve reaction       - ?dwarf/kobold access to reaction? - AQUIFER
LOAM            - Can NOT be collected  - has sieve reaction       - ?dwarf/kobold access to reaction? - AQUIFER
SANDY_LOAM      - Can NOT be collected  - has sieve reaction       - ?dwarf/kobold access to reaction? - AQUIFER
SILT_LOAM       - Can NOT be collected  - has sieve reaction       - ?dwarf/kobold access to reaction? - AQUIFER
LOAMY_SAND      - Can NOT be collected  - has sieve reaction       - ?dwarf/kobold access to reaction? - AQUIFER
SILT            - Can NOT be collected  - has destruction reaction - ?dwarf/kobold access to reaction? - AQUIFER
PELAGIC_CLAY    - Can NOT be collected  - no reactions             - AQUIFER - under ocean
CALCAREOUS_OOZE - Can NOT be collected  - no reactions             - AQUIFER - under ocean
SILICEOUS_OOZE  - Can NOT be collected  - no reactions             - AQUIFER - under ocean
FIRE_CLAY       - Can be clay collected - doesn't need sieve       - can be used by all races.

Notes:
+ Kobolds and Dwarfs only have the reactions to make clay items through DWARF_MAKE_CLAY_XXXX reactions which are in the reaction_kobold.txt raw.  these reactions are
setup to only accept CLAY not the other versions of clay.  Dwarfs get access to these reactions in the Pottery building and Kobolds in the Clay Shaper building.
* Humans have access to the DWARF_MAKE_CLAY_JUG at the Kobold potter.... which is a race workshop, most humans don't get that far, they usually are far into their
industries by the time they get the needed materials for such a shop, the kiln provides access to MAKE_CLAY_XXXX reactions that don't have the same restrictions as
the DWARF_MAKE_CLAY reactions, but also will target any 'clay' available to the shop(you can't detail it)
! Succubus have access to the kiln reactions MAKE_CLAY_XXXX which don't care which clay is used, but will also target just about any clay available to the shop.
@ Orcs have access to make items through the CLAY_XXXX_ORC reactions, that don't restrict clay access, and are set up to allow detail selection.  Orc players can choose
from the reaction which clay is to be targeted through (d)etail.

Furthermore the MAKE_CLAY_XXXX and CLAY_XXXX_ORC show one other interesting aspect... no need for a seperate reaction for FIRE_CLAY/KAOLINITE items

I'm not fully for sure where he was going with it, but it looks like this.
Dwarf/kobold - shape the item(greenware), fire the item(ceramic), glaze it if you want(jugs, statues, crafts, large pots only), done. 3 steps.
Human - either the succubus/orc way or the dwarf/kobold way...
succubus/orc - shape the item, glaze it if you want(jugs, statues, crafts, large pots only), done. 2 steps.

What needs fixing?
1. Standardizing of the system. its either all in or all out.
2. If in, then sieve reactions written for SILTY_CLAY, SANDY_CLAY, CLAY_LOAM.
3. If in, then need to make SANDY_CLAY_LOAM, SILT_CLAY_LOAM, LOAM, SANDY_LOAM, SILT_LOAM collectable, the silt reaction is only to get rid of silt left over from other reactions.
4. If in, then the shape reactions need to be designed to allow access to CLAY, FIRE_CLAY, KAOLINITE in one reaction.
5. If in, then the Fire reactions need to be designed to allow access to GREENWARE_EARTHENWARE, GREENWARE_STONEWARE, GREENWARE_PORCELAIN in one reaction.
6. All races need access to a building that provides all these reactions. It doesn't have to be the same building for all races nor does it have to be,
   the same building for all 3 steps (shape, fire, glaze).  But they all need access to the same reactions.  It simplifies the system, additionally they need to be able
   to do it quickly, either at the kiln, an easy building like the pottery, not a multistep building like orcs have (muckracker - needs captive kobold, received from raiding,
   or purchased at shadowbroker. raiding requires raid building, wood for boat, 5 metal weapons, and has a chance for failure... shadowbroker requires platinum and
   orchalcum bars... you probably wont have platinum on your map, which means you got to raid for it see above, or trade for it.  You will be lucky if a platinum object is
   brought by the traders, doesn't cost too much for a first year purchase, and smelts into 2 bars... then you still have to pay for the kobold at 2,000 platinum coins, another
4 bars worth.....) and the humans have (Kobold potter, which I'm not even sure how they get anymore; I need to try it out).

As I said there are currently 5 reactions for each item to shape them, CLAY_XXXX_ORC, MAKE_CLAY_XXXX, and DWARF_MAKE_CLAY/FIRECLAY/KAOLINITE_XXXX its way too much,
and it can be simplified.



[rosareven]

I'm more confused by the fact that, in dwarf mode, I have these reactions but I can't collect the compound clay (as in sandy clay, clay loam etc). Are they meant to be collectible? If not, the reactions are useless to me.

[Amostubal]

thats what I was trying to get at... its almost like when they were adding things in and out of the mod they either put something in without editing the other half of the files they needed or started to remove something and forgot to remove the rest.... or possibly an older file version put in by accident? maybe?  Its not intentionally done that way.  I wish I knew the consensus on which direction people want to do it? sieve or the original way?

[urmane]

I've had similar difficulty - none of the reactions will recognize anything except actual plain Clay or Fireclay.  I wind up having to either use dfhack's "changelayer CLAY" or go without.

The raws for the other types of psuedo-clay all look correct ... they just don't actually seem to work ...