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[Antioch]

One thing I don't understand: Why didn't the US just straight-up invade and occupy North Vietnam and cut off the snake's head?

It was very much believed (not unfounded) that doing so would bring China and/or the USSR into the war.

[Reelya]

The problem with "Invade north Vietnam" is exactly who are you going to put in there to run it? The South Vietnamese leaders were straight-up fascists who were widely hated by their people, that is why buddhist monks were willing to set themselves on fire in protest. The northern government + southern rebels were the nativist / nationalists who advocated independence. Those are the people who had popular support. The south government was in fact nothing more than a few military leaders who grasped onto power as lackeys of France and later USA.

And the fact is, all of Vietnam is in fact controlled by the left now and it hasn't actually gone to shit - especially given the way the fascist South Vietnamese government was carrying on. What was the last time you head of "vietnamese rebels" or people speaking out about the terrible treatment from the Vietnamese government? ever? And you can bet if they had ANYTHING bad to tell you about Vietnam after the war, they'd be yelling it from the rooftops. The general silence on how Vietnam went after the war is actually the giveaway, there are effectively no horror stories of life in modern vietnam to account.

If America had won, they'd have installed a hardline military dictator, because that is how America did things in the 70's and 80's. And then America would have had to fund his military basically forever, while he conducts widespread purges of dissidents, with things simmering away and probably ensuring another Vietnam War around the late 1980s or early 1990s.

And it's NOT a given that the right-wingers in South Vietnam would have even had the balls to invade Cambodia and defeat the Khmer Rouge. They'd be too busy trying to suppress all the really pissed of Vietnamese.

Also, at this point North Vietnam and South Vietnam were separate countries. Invading random nearby nations to solve a civil war in one specific nation is basically fucked up, and you should question why you think your nation has the "right" to do that. Are you saying America had the right to invade South Vietnam but North Vietnam didn't have the right to aid their fellow countryfolk against the US invasion? And if they dare to support their countryfolk, America should invade them too? Seriously, fuck that attitude, fuck it with a stick.

[Max™]

Japanese style squat toilets. Western toilets cause more back problems, as well as hernias, since you need to push harder when not in squatting position:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYcv6odWfTM

Plus they end the debate about seat up/down forever.

I rigged up one of these, it's not as high as it could be, but seriously the difference between feet on the floor and feet 7 or 8 inches off the floor is HUGE when it comes to how difficult it is to crap.

Fuck the piece of shit who invented the throne style toilet with the turd that killed John Wayne.

It's corporate interest that's driving the trend, not putting the brakes on it, and I don't think it's shortsighted for the people who'll lose their livelihoods over it to not want that to happen. If it ever gets to the point where people in the service industry can be economically replaced on any kind of scale, it's going to result in ‼problems‼.

Nonetheless I look forward to it. There will be a rough transition period, but the closer we get to something like The Culture, the happier I am.

Indeed, and now I think I will post what may be the most unpopular and controversial idea in the thread to date: Star Trek is a horrific setting.

A post-scarcity society that has a virulent anti-transhumanist ideology to the point that they just let people die from ordinary disease and old age despite having literally magical medical capabilities, oh, your lungs got destroyed by a fire down in the engine room?

No prob, we'll just point this little doohickie at them and they'll grow back by tomorrow, though you'll probably have a cough the rest of your life because I didn't really pay attention or whatnot since your life means so very little to me.

Now what were you asking about again? Wait, you want artificial replacements? With superior oxygen storage, full chemical filtration, and vastly improved CO2 extraction?

...

Well yes, we could do that, easily, but we won't, go join the Borg you filthy transhumanist bastard! Now get out of here before I pull out my phaser and make a point of changing it to a non-lethal setting... why isn't that the default again?

Never mind, let's just sit back and enjoy our arbitrarily limited lives as we whoosh across the galaxy in an "exploration vessel" which incidentally has been involved in accidentally or deliberately wiping out the biosphere of... well, I can't even remember how many planets honestly, but it's ok, the aliens that lived there were the kind that look like really ugly but still remarkably humanoid people, no worries!

[Pwnzerfaust]

Oh I completely agree. The Federation's restriction against human enhancement is just ridiculous. They have the technology to make people immortal. They have the technology to make people more than human. But they squander and ban it.

[itisnotlogical]

Picard got an artificial heart to save his life from an otherwise-fatal stabbing, it's the reason he almost died in... I think it was either Tapestry or The Inner Light. Voyager also has a former-Borg crewmember, and Data (depending on what movie you watch) is outright superior to any of the human crew and they generally like that about him. I can't think of any more major characters that have artificial organs but I'm sure there's extras or side characters that have artificial parts.

Regarding medicine, Star Trek is probably one of the most inconsistent sci-fi settings. Established rules will change without explanation, technology will randomly regress or leap forward, problems that were solved in a previous series will suddenly be a problem again. Besides that, while they do have technologies that are miraculous, the general presentation is that it's still a lot of intense, time-critical work to save somebody on the edge of death.

The reason they dislike the Borg isn't because CYBORGS BAD, it's because the Borg are a nigh-unstoppable force that will blow you up, kidnap your civilians and glass your colonies for not wanting to join the hivemind. It also helps that the Borg are pale, emotionless ghouls highly resistant to most of the setting's weaponry and lacking any individual personality, and there's a possibility that any Borg could be a friend, family member or fellow crewman assimilated against their will. They're more like zombies than the shiny augmented humans of Deus Ex.

Voyager gains an ex-Borg crewmember, and it's implied in First Contact that Picard kept some Borg goodies from his time as Locutus. Both become accepted members of Starfleet, after some hesitance. Because the Borg are hostile and not totally incapable of subterfuge.

[Helgoland]

A big part of what you're describing is just 'The Amish have a point', no?

[Reelya]

Yeah, and old star trek is especially bad with the "computer god" utopia planets where they inevitably completely destroy the planet's entire unique tech which is keeping everyone in a state of peace and/or immortality, with the basic argument that building again from nothing is more fun, and now you're just like we used to be, isn't that fun?

The irony is that they wipe out completely unique experimental cultures with the goal of "everyone not being the same". The implication is that if you do any culture that's not exactly like post-war USA culture everyone is a drone.

[itisnotlogical]

A big part of what you're describing is just 'The Amish have a point', no?

I thought what I was describing was that besides the fact that artificial organs are totally cool with them, as evidenced by Picard and Seven of Nine, The Federation has a big Borg-shaped reason to be afraid of too much transhumanism.

[Helgoland]

Sorry, I meant Max - you  sorta ninja'd me.

[Frumple]

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure close to literally every attempt in that universe of any meaningful degree of transhumanist tech went badly -- most exceptions were exceptions, generally singular, and occasionally went completely off the rails and almost killed everyone around them. Cyborgs, artificial life, genetic engineering, pretty sure uploading at some point or any other, basically everything. Plus they have immortals flapping around, and they're all bugnuts with as near as I can recall zero exception. Pretty sure the federation's actually operating off of empirically observed fact.

And even then, they mess around with stuff like the Doctor. The sentiment against it is strong, but they're also a lot like anti-nuke folks that can actually point to a great deal of instances where shit melted down and exploded.

You can say a lot about the writers bias, but so far as in-setting reasoning goes I'd say it's pretty defensible for folks in the star trek universe to be incredibly leery about pretty much everything transhuman or moving in its direction.

[Reelya]

And don't forget this was the 1960s, when they were just coming out of the "nuclear everything" phase. "progress" at that specific point in time was some nasty shit.

I just thought up "nuclear toothpaste" off the top of my head, then googled that and it was a real thing:
http://awesci.com/radioactive-toothpaste-shocking-ad-50s/

not to mention, I also just thought "radioactive condoms", and those were also a thing:
http://gizmodo.com/5869753/once-upon-a-time-we-used-radium-condoms-for-glow-in-the-dark-sex

Basically what self-respecting up to date 1950s gent didn't have radioactive everything?

[Starver]

Don't forget the 'problem' of transhumans like Khan Noonien Singh posed to the pre-Federation (and not exactly unproblematic to the UFP). And Dr Bashir had to keep a secret...

[misko27]

One thing I don't understand: Why didn't the US just straight-up invade and occupy North Vietnam and cut off the snake's head?

We tried this in Korea.

Two things jump to mind: One, the US lacked the security council's good-graces and thus could not act with the same openness that they did in Korea. Two: China.

The problem with "Invade north Vietnam" is exactly who are you going to put in there to run it?

Ahh but see this isn't answering the question. It's a moral answer to a practical question, which is to say that its an answer stemming from false premises. You have to take "we are at war with Vietnam and want to win" for granted, because you aren't answering "Was it a good idea?" but "Why did the people who did think the Vietnam War was a good idea not want to invade with a land invasion?" If you take for granted that the war is stupid, that solves a question that wasn't asked. How are we to "fuck [that logic] with a stick" if we don't know what that logic is in the first place?

And the answer is that marching military forces into North Vietnam is, legally speaking, a military invasion, and a military invasion with the US portrayed as the aggressors. Sure the US would have reasons to do it, but legally speaking, and from the perspective of the war, it would have been far different from Korea in terms of international support (since the US would absolutely have not had the support of the Security Council, and it would not have been portrayed as a defensive war) while being similar in substance. But similar in substance would open again the possibility of the PRC intervening militarily.

And finally, from the beginning the presidents wanted Vietnam to defeat it's own problems. The problem they had was that they saw them losing, then escalated and ramped up support. But if you take for granted that the US should help, but cannot do it for Vietnam, then you can understand why each President would see the situation and decide to escalate it (but not to the point of invasion), rather than wasting the prior investment. This turned out to be bad logic, since ultimately the only thing that *could* have won was the escalation that they were unwilling to do, but this wasn't obvious to them at the time. No one wants a quagmire. But its also true that no one wants to just cut your losses.

[Max™]

A big part of what you're describing is just 'The Amish have a point', no?

I'm super confused, I'm a fan of transhumanism, and looking back at episodes of TNG and TOS now vs watching them when I was 9 it's just hard to not take all the sci fi and such I've read and look at Trek through those lenses.

There are "token cyborgs" in Trek, we're getting to the point today where an artificial heart is boring, lord knows they have the technology to put all the shit in that visor Geordi wears into a package that could fit on the head of a pin and just implant it into the replacement biological or cybernetic eyes which they could easily make for him, it isn't like it's plausible to assume they just started backsliding on processor technology, we can stick chips in an eye nowadays that can restore a significant level of eyesight, we should be reaching the whole "broad spectrum crazy analytical function having" level of gee-whiz gadgetry which the visor has within the century, except we'll be doing it with something like a mesh of graphene or silicene or something on the back of the eyeball, and besides the awesomeness of planar molecular structures, all of this technology was old school shit in sci fi.

Back in 87 Baxter published The Xeelee Flower, the roots of all the crazy godtech the Xeelee have, the exploration of human development and expression vs the later insanity as humans decided to beat these godlike and ineffable beings the only route was to make damn sure they remain completely human, locking their genetics down, banning augmentations, and breeding en masse to throw generations of child soldiers against the fortifications of a race that was fighting a war on a scale so large the humans never even noticed it.

I look back through the stories in the Xeelee Sequence and notice the similarities with a lot of things from the Federation and the Coalition/Third Expansion which are really unsettling. In the Xeelee books humans developed anti-senescence technology and banished death, until a neighboring species discovered how primitive we were and occupied the planet to make money, they made use of controlling the AS tech to keep people in line until things turned towards genocide, we poisoned the oceans (they were aquatic hive minds) to kill them, so they set up some crazy ass heat-sink system and froze the oceans solid to punish us. We finally managed to break loose and regain our immortality and freedom, helped by the tech which we acquired from our former conquerors and lived well, until another race caught wind of how pitiful we were, even with the stolen tech, and once again withdrew AS treatments, bringing back death, only this time after getting free they were inspired by a guy who insisted that humans are best when they are what they were during the occupation.

A brief life burns brightly.

...then you get Star Trek, for the most part they are waaaaay behind the Xeelee, but there is shit that Trek has that competes with magical alien godtech, replicators, cloaking devices, matter deconstruction/reconstruction, crazy force field tech, and then you're faced with a couple of explanations. They don't try to improve their bodies, extend their lives, and so forth because of anecdotes from all these other races that fuck shit up, so even given the technological prowess they clearly possess, and supposed rational and scientific outlook they espouse, they'd be better off leaving it alone.

...oooorrrrr, they're utterly incompetent and literally couldn't think of any of the numerous ways to apply their absurd tech level to make things better for themselves and others?

Still, there's one thing you can say for Trek and their fucked up priorities or incompetence: at least they never made a handgun you could kill a star with!

Do note though: the Xeeleeverse is depressing, I mean, it's cheery compared to Manifold: Space, but so's a trip to a holocaust museum, most goddamn depressing story ever, but Trek is supposed to be inspiring and cheer you up, "to seek out new life, and new civilizations, to boldly go, where no one has gone before!" and all that jazz.

Don't forget the 'problem' of transhumans like Khan Noonien Singh posed to the pre-Federation (and not exactly unproblematic to the UFP). And Dr Bashir had to keep a secret...

Oh god, yeah, I'm like straight up, more Montalbans/Cumberbatches running around isn't a problem... wait, you meant the character part didn't you? The Monalban Khan was charming and admirable even as he was casually discussing why it is in your best interest to just get it over with and submit to his whims, he'll treat you like a beloved pet, and it's easy to believe. The Cumberbatch one was angrier, but still had that rich rolling delivery and sense that he's already figured out which cards you're holding and knows you're trying hard not to kiss him, I mean not that I'd kiss him, I'd give him a hug though.

Sadly that's the only way transhumans get presented: sexy and scary bad boys like Khan or ultracompetent and powerful but utterly meek and emotionless dolls like Data. Can't have a normal transhuman, can't have someone who is just an ordinary dude that replaced 90% of their body with artificial parts, he's gotta be a battle scarred warrior left behind by his comrades out for vengeance, it's just weird and unsettling seeing people talk about it like it's a future to strive for.

[Starver]

There are "token cyborgs" in Trek, we're getting to the point today where an artificial heart is boring, lord knows they have the technology to put all the shit in that visor Geordi wears into a package that could fit on the head of a pin and just implant it into the replacement biological or cybernetic eyes which they could easily make for him

Spoiler: ...from First Contact onwards (click to show/hide)

(And various other special transient plot instances.)

Don't forget the 'problem' of transhumans like Khan Noonien Singh posed to the pre-Federation (and not exactly unproblematic to the UFP). And Dr Bashir had to keep a secret...

Oh god, yeah, I'm like straight up, more Montalbans/Cumberbatches running around isn't a problem... wait, you meant the character part didn't you? The Monalban Khan was charming and admirable even as he was casually discussing why it is in your best interest to just get it over with and submit to his whims, he'll treat you like a beloved pet, and it's easy to believe. The Cumberbatch one was angrier, but still had that rich rolling delivery and sense that he's already figured out which cards you're holding and knows you're trying hard not to kiss him, I mean not that I'd kiss him, I'd give him a hug though.

More that the Eugenics Wars appear to have dissuaded humanity from such 'self'-improvement. (Or at least of improving the next generation.) Hence why Julian is in a fix, if his secret is discovered.

Other races have done their own thing to themselves (like the Kilngons, as retro-explained and fitted into on-screen timeline by Enterprise) or others (The Caretaker upon the Ocampa? Or am I misremembering? But definitely it was imposed upon the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta by the Founders). Any significant on-screen effects only rarely seem to work as planned (but of course that's under the influence of Plot, and as a technobabble cure of a single person's illness under limited conditions to correct an illness, a doctor tended to have better success thsn otherwise), although obviously much off-screen development may have produced the various functionally re-developed end products that more often than not formed the particular and distinctive disanthropomorphic traits of the current Alien Civilisation Of The Week.

(I'd check this all on the Trek Wikia, but it always makes my browser unstable! Maybe you aren't so affected.)

Sadly that's the only way transhumans get presented: sexy and scary bad boys like Khan or ultracompetent and powerful but utterly meek and emotionless dolls like Data. Can't have a normal transhuman, can't have someone who is just an ordinary dude that replaced 90% of their body with artificial parts, he's gotta be a battle scarred warrior left behind by his comrades out for vengeance, it's just weird and unsettling seeing people talk about it like it's a future to strive for.

I see the Trek future as more 'expanded minds' rather than 'improved bodies', in philosophy. Or at least 'peace of mind' and an absolute minimum of bodily interference (c.f. Christopher Pike). But you can also blame that on the writers and the eras they were writing in.