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Author Topic: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.  (Read 72829 times)

Sheb

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #645 on: August 27, 2017, 08:22:18 am »

Then let me propose something controversial: Faith healing, homeopathy and other stuff of that ilk are perfectly fine and nice as long as they don't interfere with real treatment. Sure, they're just glorified placebo, but placebo works (Otherwise we wouldn't need double blind trials for drugs) and if you have cancer and are goign to suffer through shitty side effects anyway, any little bit helps. Since doctors cannot lie to you (and I think that's good), it's nice to have people dedicated to giving out really nice placebo.

Of course, if they actually do anything that even hint of discouraging people from taking their real treatment, they should be jailed for manslaughter.
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Frumple

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #646 on: August 27, 2017, 08:44:42 am »

I'm... not sure that's actually very controversial, sheb :P

If the stuff wasn't trying to take the place of actual treatment, or wasn't causing people to avoid treatment in favor of the stuff, I don't think very many people would particularly care about it. Consider the folks using it a little silly or naive or somethin' at worst, probably. Mostly how I see people that are currently using both get considered, as is, least so long as the cost isn't terribly punishing.

Less sure how common a sentiment the manslaughter thing is, though. Criminal or civil penalties for things along those lines are definitely on board, but dunno how many want to go that far.

I'd say go for it, though. Right now a lot of it isn't a good faith attempt to provide comfort through deception or whathaveyou, but a exploitative attempt at fraud that's implicitly or explicitly trying to get people to be less healthy, up to and including dead, so they can take money from them and give back nothing except a lie.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #647 on: August 27, 2017, 09:43:02 am »

Then let me propose something controversial: Faith healing, homeopathy and other stuff of that ilk are perfectly fine and nice as long as they don't interfere with real treatment. Sure, they're just glorified placebo, but placebo works (Otherwise we wouldn't need double blind trials for drugs) and if you have cancer and are goign to suffer through shitty side effects anyway, any little bit helps. Since doctors cannot lie to you (and I think that's good), it's nice to have people dedicated to giving out really nice placebo.

Of course, if they actually do anything that even hint of discouraging people from taking their real treatment, they should be jailed for manslaughter.

Hmm, I want to point out that think you're mixing up the placebo effect with trials vs placebo. Conceptually they are different.  You try it versus placebo in order to make things more alike and account for random incidents (including the placebo effect but lets be real, the placebo effect is nil in most serious diseases).  But bear in mind, trials are seldom literally "versus placebo".  Often it's versus BAT (best avaiable therapy) + placebo, or even just vs BAT. (in fact, the Helsinki declaratiom recommends this). In fact,  a trial vs just placebo would be unethical and illegal in many scenarios.  You can't reasona
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Sheb

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #648 on: August 27, 2017, 09:47:24 am »

Yeah, I know that most trials are against BAT, I sneakily left that out to bolster my argument hoping I wouldn't be called out. Trying to be controversial here :P
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #649 on: August 27, 2017, 03:43:27 pm »

I don't see modifying most of the human body, excluding the nervous system to be as terrible thing.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #650 on: August 27, 2017, 04:15:11 pm »

The only thing controversial about that is excluding the nervous system.
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #651 on: August 27, 2017, 04:56:22 pm »

The only thing controversial about that is excluding the nervous system.

I think it's just not the best idea until we understand the nervous system to a point where we can make accurate predictions as to what making changes to it will actually do to a person, precisely no matter which neurons are being discussed, I personally don't think we are their yet.

overseer05-15

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #652 on: August 27, 2017, 05:03:58 pm »

The only thing controversial about that is excluding the nervous system.

I think it's just not the best idea until we understand the nervous system to a point where we can make accurate predictions as to what making changes to it will actually do to a person, precisely no matter which neurons are being discussed, I personally don't think we are their yet.

If you modify the human body, by default, you have to mod the nervous system. It's basically everywhere.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #653 on: August 27, 2017, 05:06:36 pm »

The only thing controversial about that is excluding the nervous system.

I think it's just not the best idea until we understand the nervous system to a point where we can make accurate predictions as to what making changes to it will actually do to a person, precisely no matter which neurons are being discussed, I personally don't think we are their yet.
That's a huge blanket statement.  I assume you're not against neurosurgery for the treatment of epilepsy or brain tumors, intrathecal chemotherapy for CNS tumors, or against cell therapy clinical trials to treat central nervous system diseases or damage.  And all count as modification of the cns
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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #654 on: August 27, 2017, 05:10:46 pm »

Not to mention the deep stimulation implants they've started putting in people's brains. That's about as direct a modification as it gets.
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #655 on: August 27, 2017, 05:37:49 pm »

*Sigh* I'm not saying brain surgery shouldn't be done, I'm saying we shouldn't be trying to change how brains develop before someone is born, since it seems to me to be an exceptionally complex process that still isn't fully understood, I'm not saying not to save lives I'm advocation against taking steps that could cause more harm than good.

Starver

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #656 on: August 27, 2017, 07:46:27 pm »

Can we differentiate between the linear nerves (in/out signals across purely peripheral nerve lengths, inclusive of nerve-chains and possibly consolidating/distributive trees towards/from single roots) and networked nerves that do the cyclic bits (primarily, but not solely, in the cranium) of purely internal nerve-based feedback.

Replace the peripheral nervous system all you want (especially if it's to add back on the full function of an amputated limb,  and let's skip over whether it's correcting an injury or a replacement towards transhumanism), that's just making things better for the rest of the body.  It's just a matter of signalling. Ideally at the right speed/time-delay, too. Even if less than the replacement optimum - crank it up later, as well as gradually adding sensitivities and ranges, to get the reactions (both ways) adapted without the clumsiness of the young toddler or the old codger, unsynched or desynched.

But start messing with the 'processing' bits, in the truly central(ised) nervous system, and you're treading heavily. For one thing, it's more complex than detecting something (a sense or a desire to move, electrical or chemical at either end) and passing it on. However far up/down the chain or tree. Now you've got to replace it with a comparator. (Let's assume replacing one to one, because that way we're not multiplying the complexity of an already amorphously variable component.)

And if you match your replacements perfectly enough (functionally, one by one) then you're going the way of the Ship Of Theseus. Then things get weird.

Even more weird if you imagine it's possible that if you've got a way of progressing through the original nerves, in turn, analysing what and how to replace them with... Then, as well as actually replacing it, also slot another copy into the collection of previously-separately-copied 'replacements' that you've got sitting on another table (or simulated in a computer!) , keeping it supplied with build-edge transfers of impulses detected during the attempt to copy the original's reaponses.

You'd potentially have a second brain, by the end of the process, thinking the same thoughts. Or as many of the same thoughts as you'd allow it (staring out through its duplicate eyes, it could likely tell it was 'cogito'ing from the alternate location, ergo secundi, if you didn't purposefully deceive it).

Or how about what you do with the extracted biomatter? Can it also be done carefully enough to be reassembled, in a cradle of surrogate interfaces (and other messy biological provisions) to generate a third copy. Arguably the copy most like the original by virtue of being all the original bits, even!


Or at least that's all within the limits of your already marvelous ability to effectively wholesale replace(/relocate) wetware that is designed by time, and honed by its plasticity, with your (presumably) silicon-based replacement modules. But for this thought(s!) experiment, one has to assume the clever stuff is done and dusted. Much as with the problems of Transporter technology, in a different branch of speculative fiction. (Although there was that DS9 episode with Vedek Bereil!)
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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #657 on: August 27, 2017, 09:02:39 pm »

Yeah, I'd make a distinction between peripheral and central nervous systems. Or the brain and everything else. There's no risk of damaging somebody's personality, memories, and other stuff like that through changing the nerves in their arm and that's very valuable for prosthesis if nothing else.

I do agree with you 100% about leaving the brain alone, and I would in theory extend that to genetically engineering humans in everything else that isn't an outright unambiguous defect like a missing arm or muscular dystrophy. In practice I don't think even that is restrictive enough to prevent the technology from eventually spreading out wider into more dystopian territory.
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #658 on: August 28, 2017, 07:25:17 am »

I guess what I was saying is that have little problem with say for a simple example producings someone with with filamensts other than the usual human hair growing from their skin, at least hypothetically I don't the main problem for me being that it's still fairly hard to change the biology of adult humans, at least time I checked.

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Re: The Unpopular/Controversial Ideas Thread.
« Reply #659 on: August 28, 2017, 10:06:53 am »

I guess what I was saying is that have little problem with say for a simple example producings someone with with filamensts other than the usual human hair growing from their skin, at least hypothetically I don't the main problem for me being that it's still fairly hard to change the biology of adult humans, at least time I checked.

Depends what you want to change. Between engineered retroviruses and admittedly overhyped technologies like CRISPR, there's a lot we can do to change the genome, and while a good deal of anatomy is already set in adults, physiology isn't. Of course, you could always grow whatever new stuff you wanted from self-harvested induced pluripotent stems, attach it surgically, and fuse the nerves with PTEN inhibitors so it works.
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