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Author Topic: Dogfooding my own strategy guide  (Read 12061 times)

mikekchar

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2017, 08:32:39 am »

Brewing: 7 dwarfs drink 14 units of alcohol per month.  In the worst possible case (stacks of 1 plant), you will need to brew 3 times in that month.  It takes less than 1 day to brew (not exactly sure how much less, but a fair amount).  Thus the brewer will be brewing considerably less than 10% of their time.   As the fort gets bigger, the brewer has more to do, but they have lots of time to train (or, more likely, be replaced by an immigrant).  If you have useful points *anywhere* I think it's going to be better off than brewing.

Same logic for cooking, BTW.  7 dwarfs eat 7 food per month.  The worst possible situation is a stack of 3 result, but that's pretty unlikely.  If you have to cook more than twice a month at the beginning, it would be pretty unusual (especially since the dwarfs are likely to eat *some* raw food).  Optimising this will give you at best 1 or 2 percent more free time for your cook.  Not worth it, IMHO.
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Thorfinn

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2017, 03:17:21 pm »

Some of the advice which didn't get incorporated into the guide:

Supplies:
* Don't bring plaster, bring rocks and make it

Adds complexity for beginners, embark points are relatively plentiful

* Bring thread for sutures
Already included, I believe.
Hope that wasn't me. I meant I don't bring it at all, and I often embark in much worse places. Thread/rope are easy to get. Yes, it's cheap, but there's always something better to bring.

Skills:
Many comments were along the lines of "that can be trained easily/has no quality; allocate points elsewhere". I have some rebuttals. First, it's generally easiest for beginners to understand things when a dwarf's labours align with the skill points you spend on them. Another argument is that increases in task speed are actually very valuable to the overall efficiency of the fortress, and spare labour is at a premium in the early game so it makes sense to hit the ground running. The final argument is that the sooner dwarves master a skill, the sooner I'll be cross-training them, building in redundancy, and assigning them to a military rotation; that will be explained in more detail later.
I often assign a single level just so I don't have to go through the labor screen.

...efficiency is always a priority =p
Maybe. I don't know whether time is true or not, but I find that my brewer has a hard enough time keeping up, so I always "blow" some points on brewing.

* Spend on appraisal to help with first trade
This might actually be a good idea; perhaps one of the miners could be the trader. Something to playtest.
I'm with mikekchar here. While I don't put it to use as early as he does, it's great by the time the first caravan shows up, and more importantly, you get to choose which mandates will happen. If you don't "butch" your expedition leader, you are at the mercy of the gods of random what mandates you get.

Layout/industry
* Bedrooms close to labour workshops
Definitely including this in next section
Meh. They don't sleep enough to make any difference. Same with eating. Drinking, I'll bother with, since it's twice as often.


* Start textile industry early
That's coming, but I feel the components of the guide to date are more urgent.
If your early game requires you to sacrifice the textile industry, do so. If there are not more important things to do, why not?

* Farms too big
Could be - I plead future-proofing. As for keeping up with crop harvests, we'll see how the farmer goes during playtesting, and I may very well consider reducing the size if things are rotting. I haven't usually had any issues with this, but will keep an eye on it.
It's not necessarily that they are "too big" but that they are not sufficiently granular. By late game, I may well have as many tiles on a particular crop, it's just that I had the opportunity to have lots of variety in the meantime. FWIW, unless I get totally screwed by the aquifer gods, I am usually planting my first subterranian crop by the 17th or 18th of, um, January (Granite?), so I get in two harvests of most crops before summer starts. That alone makes a big difference in how long it takes to get the colony going.

* Go for magma
2spooky4me! I confess I haven't got a lot of experience with magma so I'll probably be doing some public learning when we hit that layer. I'd rather not breach the lower caverns until we can reliably pacify them.
No need to pacify them. All you need to do is prevent the magma crabs from getting out. Placing a kiln works fine, as do hatches, grates, floors, etc.

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ldog

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2017, 05:15:02 pm »

Appraisal is a complete waste. It will level up instantly the first time the broker goes in to trade. The other noble skills (bookkeeping, organizer, any social skills) are also a waste of points as they will immediately gain the required skills on the job. This is another longstanding piece of useless advice that people mindlessly perpetuate, it might have made sense in 34 (was before my time) but it hasn't since.

Remembering why I hate bins and love QSP...anywho...some thoughts on the stockpiles:
Intermediate goods should be kept near next workshop, and usually don't need large stocks (I'm looking at YOU ash bars pile) would set bins to 0 for sure, since 20 is plenty. Actually I would just put the ashery inside the pile.
Actually a lot of the piles I would recommend not using bins for and/or consolidate more possibly, crutches/splints for example; 5 each in the hospital, sure keeping a few extra around might not hurt, but certainly not 20 bins full of them (and I'm not positive they go in bins, like I said bins are foreign to me). Wooden shields and crossbows are another thing I'd keep the 5x4 pile binless (but then I tend to make most of these out of steel anyway, which with them wearing out in battle being a new thing is probably best). Not really sure why I'd want 2 piles of wooden pump parts either, but then maybe it's cause I tend to use glass for that (magma safe). You neglect to mention meat & fish for the kitchen piles, which considering came along with embark in all likelihood, needs to go there. Fat/tallow too (because otherwise you'll forget).

The fields (and not trying to change your mind anymore at this point, but a bit of info for what you can expect and how to deal with it) are definitly future-proofed.  The 4 large fields unfertilized with adequate skilled farmers should supply even a max pop fort. Fertilized no probs, but will take 24 potash per season! Now the more I think about the extra PT, the more I like it, since you can make paper out of it as well (something I had been buying previously), so I definitly think I will work a 4th field into my own design. I don't think you are going to get good results with less than 4 farmers.

My current (other than your guide) fort has around 128 dorfs IIRC, I have 3 fields, 1x7 fertilized (6 potash per season total), a legendary and a high master grower, and I let everyone harvest. I'm overflowing in food (between geese and cavern monster meat + farming) and booze. Clothing industry making all varieties of everything, although I do trade for a bit of cloth & dye typically (especially since I've no silk left to harvest). Fort is about 4 or 5 years old. Ale does tend to be my lowest stock though. I would probably add another rotation of dye or two with the extra PT. 1:1 for PT (that is going to thread):DC is fine, but it doesn't account for dying your wool & silk. By the way, DC/PT/PT/DC is a good field combo. Skilled farmer migrants also seem to be quite rare for me, always (and the few I ever get seem to be skilled soldiers with good stats as well so it's always a hard choice).

Back to my playthrough:
So trading with the 1st caravan. We've got rock crafts (bleh) and wooden spiked balls (yay!) plus some poor quality crap I want to weed out early. Got 8 migrants...3 of them are fishers/fishcleaners/disectors <grumble>, 1 lvl 5 mechanic...and not a useful skill otherwise, other than the fact that most of them are (very) lowskill marksdwarves...<more grumbling>. I'll have to speedtest your layout with my usual embark profile. It's a bit slower initial going generally, but I'm at least guaranteed lvl 5 in major skills if the migrants RNG is unkind to me. Granted regular quality is just that, regular, there are no poor quality levels in DF, so it isn't the end of the world. Regular steel armor and weapons still do a bang up job.

Uncle Krougal's tradetips for noobs (AKA shit I wish someone told me when I was a noob)- Trading in other games (like RL) is usually about making a profit, for DF forget what you know about commerce, in DF trading is about 2 things.
1. Getting rid of shit you don't need.
2. Getting shit you need/want (after 2nd year mostly want)
You want them to leave ecstatic, so give them a stupid profit margin. Why? The more profit they make, the more crap they will bring next year. That means the more of your unwanted crap you can get some return on. Also the more migrants you will get. For the first caravan that can be tough, since you likely don't have a lot to get rid of (although if you start making trap components when they arrive on the map, you can still pretty well clean them out). By the 3rd year if you don't have more garbage to throw at them than they have stuff you want to buy you're doing it wrong anyway.

First caravan priorities are leather (quivers and backpacks for your military, your livestock industry is going to take a few years to get good returns), possibly metals/wood/sand if your map is lacking, maybe some more seeds if you didn't bring a lot, and likely some more brewables. Also good to mark these up with the diplomat as well, so that next year they will bring more. With the advent of libraries, I'd also recommend keeping an eye out for written books/scrolls, many dwarves like to read in their spare time (whoda thunk it?). Speaking of livestock you can request those (from diplomat, pets category), and with the appropriate dfhack tweak (I think Peridis enables it in LNP by default) you can request each gender seperately. Great for if that lone cat dies or you find you forgot the sheep (like me!) or someone brought pets of 1 gender, and you might as well make the best of it. Also even if the caravan shows up and you haven't crafted any goods (just so long as you built that depot) don't panic; you can start crafting spiked balls or whatever now, and continue up until you get the message they are preparing to leave. Just keep an eye on completions and keep them moving up to the depot ASAP.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 09:02:53 pm by ldog »
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For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

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The more appropriate question becomes, are they awesome and dwarven enough.

Leiker

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2017, 04:41:45 pm »

I'm a new player and I am following your guide!

I've had a few other forts in the past which I made mostly following build orders and strategies of various Youtube lets plays, but I always prefer text since its easier to get an overview of what needs to be done.

Im really enjoying your guide, especially the stockpile stuff is very useful for a new player. In my first couple of forts that part was very very inefficient compared to your setup! Im using Z-axis a lot more than before and I really liked your guide to irrigation too, which I have tried to avoid up until now.

Only problem I had was running out of drink before finishing the stone and wood industries, but reading this it seems that you are trying to correct it. It wasnt a big problem since I kept an eye on stockpiles so I just built a quick still to make sure I wasnt running out of drink.

I also had the problem with dwarves getting stuck in treas, I didnt sell the stepladders and I am not entirely sure what caused them to get stuck (maybe Keas stole the ladders?) but now cut down all trees infront of my fort. I severely injured one dwarf who had climbed a tree when I cut it down so I had to build a hospital before time although he died anyway because I didnt have freshwater access (River had frozen, irrigation wasnt ready)

Now PLEASE for the love of god tell me how to set up the metal industry or whatever goes in the 4th quadrant, I am unable to progress without knowing. I've been checking your guide every day for updates and eventually I found this thread and created an account just to ask for some more info on the metal industry :P

Anyway, thanks for writing this!

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ldog

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2017, 07:16:50 pm »

So on a fresh start without screwing around and only mining out areas as I needed, everything done before fall (other than the 4th quad and the roof over surface fort). I normally don't do surface forts either (at least not as part of early strategy), since once you breach the caverns fungus will grow on any excavated soil levels, making underground pasture a thing, but this one isn't too much of a hardship to get done before winter. It's probably a good thing for a new player to have too, since they can try their hand at beekeeping/surface farming/keeping everyone from getting cave adaptation/whatevs.

Another protip on managing the order of mining without making yourself too crazy; set the doorways of rooms to "mark only". Makes it very easy to use the Quickfort utility to lay an entire area out at once but still get important rooms done first. I made plans for the 3 levels and a 4 layer spiral ramp that I'll be happy to share soon as I find somewhere to put them; forum doesn't appear to allow attachments. Recommend not digging out the extra storage rooms on mason/carpenter areas until the farm area is done. You can always slap temporary workshops into the center room or even the stairwell levels and tear them down later.

Also bears mentioning to get the depot built by the end of summer, because when the caravan check happens in the fall, if there is no depot then no caravan.

What else what else. Oh, depending on orientation of your water source, you may not have pressure for the u-bend. A brook tapped in the side for example, I only got a very little bit of water sitting there in the pipe and was perplexed a few. Then I remembered something about it (which is probably on the wiki as well) and channeled out 2 more tiles around the 1st channel. Then we got flow. Also forgot to mention, besides the bad floodgate placement (and I'd recommend moving it right next to the floor grate, gives you the most flexibility for side-taps later; do be careful to shut it quickly if you do that when irrigating the farms, water level on that pipe like 3ish), the top of the stairwell has to be stairs, channeling from the surface isn't going to allow waterflow. So it goes river - channel (which you should probably floor over) - skip (you should probably floor over this as well, I don't know if a tree could grow over the bridge but it would be very bad)- down stairs on surface (which you'll floor over for sure). river - up ramp(from the channel) - dig (where you build bridge) - up/down stairs.

Stonecrafter/mechanic is actually turning out to be a bad combo - if you're serious about rock pots that is gonna keep the crafter very busy. Mechanic it depends how into mechanics you are, it's not usually a full-time job for me, but on the other hand when you want shit done, you generally want it done ASAP! I could have had the irrigation done for summer planting if their roles were split (although getting it done in time for fall isn't so bad).

If you guys are running out of booze then you aren't bringing enough/getting to it fast enough. I usually bring 80 (so 20 more than default) and some stuff to brew as well (forbid the PH so they don't get eaten and brew them ASAP) between that and having the herbalist it really should be no issue.

Stockpile settings can also be exported/imported which makes life a lot easier, it's a DFHack function, again if you're using the LNP it should be enabled by default. It's more sensible to get all the plants sorted anyway, since you might acquire by trade stuff you don't have locally anyway.

And while appraisal currently isn't worth taking at embark, a level of judge of intent probably is (because it lets you see your trading partners mood, and is slower to gain a level).
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 09:26:56 pm by ldog »
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For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

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Lav

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2017, 11:30:29 pm »

If you guys are running out of booze then you aren't bringing enough/getting to it fast enough. I usually bring 80 (so 20 more than default) and some stuff to brew as well (forbid the PH so they don't get eaten and brew them ASAP) between that and having the herbalist it really should be no issue.
My play style isn't one suited for a newbie-friendly guide - I don't bring any food at all (sometimes not even seeds), don't do any farming in the first year, brewing is done on a case-by-case basis by whoever is free at the moment and my only source of crops is level 2-3 Herbalist who's also fortress bookkeeper, manager, leader, broker and weaponsmith. I still regularly manage to overfill my 11x11 booze stockpile by Fall (that's 121 * 5+ = 600+ alcohol, normally in 800-1200 range as not all plant stacks are size 1).

So while I'm pretty sure Brewing skill does affect speed, it's not a skill I would be terribly concerned with. :-)
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Seems to be the way with things on this forum; if an invention doesn't involve death by magma then you know someone's going to go out of their way to make sure it does involve death by magma... then it gets acknowledged as being a great invention.

Leiker

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2017, 12:12:01 pm »

Will be awaiting the next update eagerly, your guide really got me hooked on the game. Though to be fair, I also have a lot of RL work which needs to be done in the next couple of weeks so maybe its for the better that you are busy as well, haha!

I had to start a new fort though as I had migrants, an elven caravan and a wererhino show up all at the same time and it was just too much fun for me to handle without an army and a hospital ready. I guess I can spend the next couple of days making a new fort and maybe try to figure out how quickfort works so I dont have to spend hours designating stuff when it all becomes too fun again.

A shame too because I had some really awesome migrants including a master armorsmith, a very skilled doctor and a grandmaster woodburner. In my previous games i always had shitty migrants with low skills. Too bad they didnt get the put those skills to good use. Maybe I could have survived if I had followed your advice and settled in the middle of the map, the wererhino practically spawned on top of me. I also had a dwarf go insane because he entered a mood and I guess I didnt have the relevant stuff ready for him. Most of these things could probably have been avoided if I had followed the guide to the point though.
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Mostali

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2017, 01:36:49 pm »

On brewing, I don't think the focus of the question should be on whether a more skilled brewer is better than unskilled, but on whether it's worth the point cost on embark.  A proficient brewer costs 35 points and 5 of your 70 possible skills.  Considering that there will almost certainly be a migrant skilled in brewing in the first two years, that means the cost is entirely spent on marginally faster brewing for at most a couple of years.

Those 35 points could of course go to something like another armorer, weaponsmith, or whatever.  Or they could buy another pair of were-beast occupying meat shields dogs; 8 more plump helmets (40 booze); 5 egg-laying birds; 11 wood, coal, or other cheap stone; 3 tetrahedrite ore+2 coal; 17 garden vegetables (which can't be brewed, but if you just let dwarves eat them without cooking you'll get seeds); 5 cave-spider silk thread; et al.

The main point is that embark points are a limited resource with (imo) more value than an easily trainable skill with unclear benefits.  In particular, given a strict choice between a proficient brewer and those 8 plump helmets, I would always take the 8 plump helmets since there's no quality consideration and whoever I assign as the brewer gets immediate experience and the fort gets 40 booze.
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ldog

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2017, 01:46:53 pm »

So since you guys seem to be having really bad luck, I'd recommend getting an earlier inner DB in so you can build the surface fort at your leisure (or even not at all).
Immediately inside the 1st level ramp, build a 1x3 bridge.

Also if you go into advanced world gen settings you can limit/remove entirely werecreatures, vampires, etc. Makes it a bit easier as a noob and you've got enough stuff to worry about. Personally, I don't consider them very well implemented or to add value to my game as they are so I set them to 0 even still.

Here's an old but still mostly valid (and probably the most recent even though several years old) discussion on embark profiles by the way:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143533.0

Here is everything that can be brewed by the way (in dfstock file format).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kitchen stockpile was too long to put in post, but I've got it.

They're much easier to use of course with DFHack stocksense (lets you save/load stockpile settings), although I see from your newly edited guidepost you are a masochist (Dwarf Therapist is called Dwarf Therapist for good reason) but you should be able to extract a readable list from that. There really is so much quality of life improvement with the LNP but to each his own.

Also Quarry bush doesn't go to press/mill (I'm assuming that is what you plan to put in that corner) it goes to the farmers workshop. Process to bag is it's sole reaction. Blade weed, hide root & sliver barb should go with dimple cup; they all make dye. Seeds that can be milled into cakes and then pressed for oil: flax, hemp, cotton, kenaf, rock nut (QB), and olive (fruit not seed) you might also want a pile for. Rope reed, flax plants, jute plants, hemp plants, cotton plants, ramie plants, and kenaf plants all make thread and slurry for paper (but not booze except for rope reed). Finally papyrus of course makes paper and only paper.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 01:57:58 pm by ldog »
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Quote from: Dirst
For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

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The more appropriate question becomes, are they awesome and dwarven enough.

Leiker

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2017, 04:04:42 pm »

Thats awesome ldog.

Could you send the kitchen stockpile to me in a PM if its too big to post in the thread?
Even though I am following Mixtrak's guide I dont share his masochistic tendencies and am using LNP, Therapist, ect :)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 04:06:51 pm by Leiker »
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ldog

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2017, 09:59:56 am »

Thats awesome ldog.

Could you send the kitchen stockpile to me in a PM if its too big to post in the thread?
Even though I am following Mixtrak's guide I dont share his masochistic tendencies and am using LNP, Therapist, ect :)

Looks like you can't attach to PM either (or I am fucking blind).
Anyway, I put it up on DFFD http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12776
The stocksettings folder goes into the DF installation itself. Non-brewables isn't really useful, I left it for reference. Brewables for the still supply. Kitchen for the kitchen supply. Trash is for the surface refuse pile; lot of default crap in refuse category you don't want going there.
There's also blueprints for Quickfort, the spiral will dig 4 levels per run, seperate upper/middle/lower plans for Mixtrak's levels (because fucking up a stairwell designation is painful) - the middle layer plan you will need to do a little digging out by hand in the center room; I wanted it to be usable no matter what your ramp placement is. I'll probably add to the file as time goes by. I've actually got a pretty tight little fort design that I call "Improved Quickfort" but it's a bit complicated even with the plans.

Oh, and levers in the rampwell are a bad idea; they will block the caravan path. It's always good to build the depot before the end of the summer, so you can hit D and check the pathing. I decided to build it in the large central room. Good thing I checked pathing.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 12:13:53 pm by ldog »
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Quote from: Dirst
For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

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The more appropriate question becomes, are they awesome and dwarven enough.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2017, 09:29:32 am »

re: moodable skill biasing

You don't need to spend embark points or starting skills to do this.  Just have dwarves with no other moodable skills do one job in a moodable skill.  Dabbling is sufficient to mood in that skill.  (And a single point spent in the skill will likely rust to dabbling long before they mood anyway).

Since pick quality doesn't matter at all for mining, I frequently have my starting dwarves with no moodable skills make the first two picks.  (I always bring metal and/or ore and make my own picks/axes unless I'm expecting immediate !!fun!!).
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ldog

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2017, 09:32:28 am »

Revised part 2: getting inside.

Personally, I'd put the wardogs behind the bridge and channel the full 3 tiles from the surface. That way they aren't all slaughtered if you have to hole up.
I'm guessing your reasoning is they give you a distraction and time for the bridge to close from when the lever is pulled, which is valid enough.
I move the puppies down to their own zone on the next level as soon as they are born anyway; keeps them out of the way.
Oh, and we don't store charcoal with the wood industry, it goes with the metal industry. Intermediate products are best kept near their destination not their source.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 06:25:31 pm by ldog »
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Quote from: Dirst
For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

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The more appropriate question becomes, are they awesome and dwarven enough.

Leiker

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2017, 04:57:53 am »


Finally, I think I'm going to tweak my playtesting approach. Previously, when playtesting or forum comments indicated that significant revisions were required, I simply retired the fortress, made the revisions, and started again. That's a little boring because we could, potentially, just be re-treading the same early-game ground indefinitely, and there's no time for stories or fortress character to develop. Instead, I think I'll make a commitment that, each play-through, I'll persist with a fortress until it's destroyed, and just create new guide sections along the way.

Also, that means I can go back to writing stories which go along with the playtests. I enjoy that very much.

Thats a good call. Actually having fun and enjoying the game is the most important thing after all.

Does this mean I shouldnt hold out for part 4/metal industry anytime soon though? I'd prefer to play along with the guide, but if its going to be a long time I will just continue this fort on my own accord.

Edit: Also noticed you now recommend bringing a woodcrafter to make wooden pots. Is there any point in making stone pots at all if you have the capability to make wooden pots? (I.e. plenty of trees and a woodcrafter)

Once again thanks for doing this!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 05:24:13 am by Leiker »
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Snafu

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Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2017, 01:28:57 pm »

Elves will be upset if you try to sell them anything made or derived from wood (including charcoal, thus they won't take many metal or glass crafts). Stone's easy enough to come by & it makes relatively vermin-proof food/drink containers too, albeit heavier than wood ofc
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