Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

Author Topic: Dogfooding my own strategy guide  (Read 3723 times)

mixtrak

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2017, 09:42:59 pm »

All good advice. Definitely need thorough revision of previous sections; I have been taking notes and will update ASAP.

Since there are a few people who want to see what happens next (which is very gratifying), I'll probably continue adding sections to the guide before going back and doing those revisions.

Next is some basic amenities/infrastructure and expanding a few industries, all in the name of easier management and keeping dwarves happy. I'm a little hesitant because it seems like metal/army should be a priority, but the couple of infrastructure projects I have planned shouldn't take too long...
Logged
I applaud your attempt to bite a Forgotten Beast in the teeth

Lav

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2017, 11:30:29 pm »

If you guys are running out of booze then you aren't bringing enough/getting to it fast enough. I usually bring 80 (so 20 more than default) and some stuff to brew as well (forbid the PH so they don't get eaten and brew them ASAP) between that and having the herbalist it really should be no issue.
My play style isn't one suited for a newbie-friendly guide - I don't bring any food at all (sometimes not even seeds), don't do any farming in the first year, brewing is done on a case-by-case basis by whoever is free at the moment and my only source of crops is level 2-3 Herbalist who's also fortress bookkeeper, manager, leader, broker and weaponsmith. I still regularly manage to overfill my 11x11 booze stockpile by Fall (that's 121 * 5+ = 600+ alcohol, normally in 800-1200 range as not all plant stacks are size 1).

So while I'm pretty sure Brewing skill does affect speed, it's not a skill I would be terribly concerned with. :-)
Logged
Seems to be the way with things on this forum; if an invention doesn't involve death by magma then you know someone's going to go out of their way to make sure it does involve death by magma... then it gets acknowledged as being a great invention.

mixtrak

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2017, 03:54:51 am »

Yeah that's definitely true; obviously I accept that a fortress boozesmith can be some Joe Schmoe who's never seen yeast before in their life - that's true whether speed increases with skill or not.

However, my gut feeling is that it's more probable speed does scale with skill, in which case the efficiency principle comes into play.

The efficiency principle states that the more efficient a dwarf is at a task, the more useful they are to the fortress not just because they do that one task better but because they have more free labour time to devote to other fortress tasks. It's basically giving you free dwarf-hours; so efficiency (which I guess is mathematically related to productivity, depending on how you choose to define it) is always a major consideration when optimising labours and skills. At least, it is for me, because I always have more tasks in my brain than dwarfpower to accomplish them.

I just made that up on the fly but I'm sure it's been formulated better in economic circles.

Won't be updating the guide for at least a few days, maybe a week, because of other priorities, so apologies to anyone waiting for the next section.
Logged
I applaud your attempt to bite a Forgotten Beast in the teeth

mixtrak

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2017, 11:35:36 am »

Actually scratch that; I started trying to write the next section but we've skipped a few things so it doesn't make sense without going back and filling things in. This will take a while.
Logged
I applaud your attempt to bite a Forgotten Beast in the teeth

Leiker

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2017, 12:12:01 pm »

Will be awaiting the next update eagerly, your guide really got me hooked on the game. Though to be fair, I also have a lot of RL work which needs to be done in the next couple of weeks so maybe its for the better that you are busy as well, haha!

I had to start a new fort though as I had migrants, an elven caravan and a wererhino show up all at the same time and it was just too much fun for me to handle without an army and a hospital ready. I guess I can spend the next couple of days making a new fort and maybe try to figure out how quickfort works so I dont have to spend hours designating stuff when it all becomes too fun again.

A shame too because I had some really awesome migrants including a master armorsmith, a very skilled doctor and a grandmaster woodburner. In my previous games i always had shitty migrants with low skills. Too bad they didnt get the put those skills to good use. Maybe I could have survived if I had followed your advice and settled in the middle of the map, the wererhino practically spawned on top of me. I also had a dwarf go insane because he entered a mood and I guess I didnt have the relevant stuff ready for him. Most of these things could probably have been avoided if I had followed the guide to the point though.
Logged

Mostali

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2017, 01:36:49 pm »

On brewing, I don't think the focus of the question should be on whether a more skilled brewer is better than unskilled, but on whether it's worth the point cost on embark.  A proficient brewer costs 35 points and 5 of your 70 possible skills.  Considering that there will almost certainly be a migrant skilled in brewing in the first two years, that means the cost is entirely spent on marginally faster brewing for at most a couple of years.

Those 35 points could of course go to something like another armorer, weaponsmith, or whatever.  Or they could buy another pair of were-beast occupying meat shields dogs; 8 more plump helmets (40 booze); 5 egg-laying birds; 11 wood, coal, or other cheap stone; 3 tetrahedrite ore+2 coal; 17 garden vegetables (which can't be brewed, but if you just let dwarves eat them without cooking you'll get seeds); 5 cave-spider silk thread; et al.

The main point is that embark points are a limited resource with (imo) more value than an easily trainable skill with unclear benefits.  In particular, given a strict choice between a proficient brewer and those 8 plump helmets, I would always take the 8 plump helmets since there's no quality consideration and whoever I assign as the brewer gets immediate experience and the fort gets 40 booze.
Logged

ldog

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2017, 01:46:53 pm »

So since you guys seem to be having really bad luck, I'd recommend getting an earlier inner DB in so you can build the surface fort at your leisure (or even not at all).
Immediately inside the 1st level ramp, build a 1x3 bridge.

Also if you go into advanced world gen settings you can limit/remove entirely werecreatures, vampires, etc. Makes it a bit easier as a noob and you've got enough stuff to worry about. Personally, I don't consider them very well implemented or to add value to my game as they are so I set them to 0 even still.

Here's an old but still mostly valid (and probably the most recent even though several years old) discussion on embark profiles by the way:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143533.0

Here is everything that can be brewed by the way (in dfstock file format).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kitchen stockpile was too long to put in post, but I've got it.

They're much easier to use of course with DFHack stocksense (lets you save/load stockpile settings), although I see from your newly edited guidepost you are a masochist (Dwarf Therapist is called Dwarf Therapist for good reason) but you should be able to extract a readable list from that. There really is so much quality of life improvement with the LNP but to each his own.

Also Quarry bush doesn't go to press/mill (I'm assuming that is what you plan to put in that corner) it goes to the farmers workshop. Process to bag is it's sole reaction. Blade weed, hide root & sliver barb should go with dimple cup; they all make dye. Seeds that can be milled into cakes and then pressed for oil: flax, hemp, cotton, kenaf, rock nut (QB), and olive (fruit not seed) you might also want a pile for. Rope reed, flax plants, jute plants, hemp plants, cotton plants, ramie plants, and kenaf plants all make thread and slurry for paper (but not booze except for rope reed). Finally papyrus of course makes paper and only paper.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 01:57:58 pm by ldog »
Logged
Quote from: Dirst
For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

Quote from: gchristopher
The more appropriate question becomes, are they awesome and dwarven enough.

Leiker

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2017, 04:04:42 pm »

Thats awesome ldog.

Could you send the kitchen stockpile to me in a PM if its too big to post in the thread?
Even though I am following Mixtrak's guide I dont share his masochistic tendencies and am using LNP, Therapist, ect :)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 04:06:51 pm by Leiker »
Logged

ldog

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2017, 09:59:56 am »

Thats awesome ldog.

Could you send the kitchen stockpile to me in a PM if its too big to post in the thread?
Even though I am following Mixtrak's guide I dont share his masochistic tendencies and am using LNP, Therapist, ect :)

Looks like you can't attach to PM either (or I am fucking blind).
Anyway, I put it up on DFFD http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12776
The stocksettings folder goes into the DF installation itself. Non-brewables isn't really useful, I left it for reference. Brewables for the still supply. Kitchen for the kitchen supply. Trash is for the surface refuse pile; lot of default crap in refuse category you don't want going there.
There's also blueprints for Quickfort, the spiral will dig 4 levels per run, seperate upper/middle/lower plans for Mixtrak's levels (because fucking up a stairwell designation is painful) - the middle layer plan you will need to do a little digging out by hand in the center room; I wanted it to be usable no matter what your ramp placement is. I'll probably add to the file as time goes by. I've actually got a pretty tight little fort design that I call "Improved Quickfort" but it's a bit complicated even with the plans.

Oh, and levers in the rampwell are a bad idea; they will block the caravan path. It's always good to build the depot before the end of the summer, so you can hit D and check the pathing. I decided to build it in the large central room. Good thing I checked pathing.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 12:13:53 pm by ldog »
Logged
Quote from: Dirst
For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

Quote from: gchristopher
The more appropriate question becomes, are they awesome and dwarven enough.

mixtrak

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2017, 07:55:14 am »

Revised part 2: getting inside.
Logged
I applaud your attempt to bite a Forgotten Beast in the teeth

Squirrelloid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2017, 09:29:32 am »

re: moodable skill biasing

You don't need to spend embark points or starting skills to do this.  Just have dwarves with no other moodable skills do one job in a moodable skill.  Dabbling is sufficient to mood in that skill.  (And a single point spent in the skill will likely rust to dabbling long before they mood anyway).

Since pick quality doesn't matter at all for mining, I frequently have my starting dwarves with no moodable skills make the first two picks.  (I always bring metal and/or ore and make my own picks/axes unless I'm expecting immediate !!fun!!).
Logged

ldog

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2017, 09:32:28 am »

Revised part 2: getting inside.

Personally, I'd put the wardogs behind the bridge and channel the full 3 tiles from the surface. That way they aren't all slaughtered if you have to hole up.
I'm guessing your reasoning is they give you a distraction and time for the bridge to close from when the lever is pulled, which is valid enough.
I move the puppies down to their own zone on the next level as soon as they are born anyway; keeps them out of the way.
Oh, and we don't store charcoal with the wood industry, it goes with the metal industry. Intermediate products are best kept near their destination not their source.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 06:25:31 pm by ldog »
Logged
Quote from: Dirst
For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

Quote from: gchristopher
The more appropriate question becomes, are they awesome and dwarven enough.

mixtrak

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2017, 08:23:26 pm »

Updated the guide to reflect some advice: changed brewing skill points to woodcrafting for wooden pots (woodcrafter/herbalist can learn brewing on the job), also updated the "dealing with threats" in part 2 to recommend bringing wardogs inside if you wall yourself in against threats.
Logged
I applaud your attempt to bite a Forgotten Beast in the teeth

mixtrak

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2017, 02:02:46 am »

A little expectation management: work on this guide is going to slow down a lot now, because I've been neglecting other responsibilities to get it off the ground...

Currently, I'm editing the (extremely lengthy) part 3 into smaller steps which a) are more easily digested b) more clearly walk players through the priorities, rather than being organised by industry. As well as reorganisation, I'm also editing the content based on playtesting and the feedback from forum members here.

Finally, I think I'm going to tweak my playtesting approach. Previously, when playtesting or forum comments indicated that significant revisions were required, I simply retired the fortress, made the revisions, and started again. That's a little boring because we could, potentially, just be re-treading the same early-game ground indefinitely, and there's no time for stories or fortress character to develop. Instead, I think I'll make a commitment that, each play-through, I'll persist with a fortress until it's destroyed, and just create new guide sections along the way.

Also, that means I can go back to writing stories which go along with the playtests. I enjoy that very much.
Logged
I applaud your attempt to bite a Forgotten Beast in the teeth

Leiker

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dogfooding my own strategy guide
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2017, 04:57:53 am »


Finally, I think I'm going to tweak my playtesting approach. Previously, when playtesting or forum comments indicated that significant revisions were required, I simply retired the fortress, made the revisions, and started again. That's a little boring because we could, potentially, just be re-treading the same early-game ground indefinitely, and there's no time for stories or fortress character to develop. Instead, I think I'll make a commitment that, each play-through, I'll persist with a fortress until it's destroyed, and just create new guide sections along the way.

Also, that means I can go back to writing stories which go along with the playtests. I enjoy that very much.

Thats a good call. Actually having fun and enjoying the game is the most important thing after all.

Does this mean I shouldnt hold out for part 4/metal industry anytime soon though? I'd prefer to play along with the guide, but if its going to be a long time I will just continue this fort on my own accord.

Edit: Also noticed you now recommend bringing a woodcrafter to make wooden pots. Is there any point in making stone pots at all if you have the capability to make wooden pots? (I.e. plenty of trees and a woodcrafter)

Once again thanks for doing this!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 05:24:13 am by Leiker »
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6