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[The Mole]

So I found this game through jay is games, and I have to say that I'm completely hooked.  The gameplay reminds me of Ultima III/IV (yeah I'm old), but it is so much more complex, approaching or even surpassing the complexity of the Civ series which I have played for years.

Here's my question: What's better to start with?  I find that the new version is a little too much for me.  It's easier to get started with food, supplies, and such, but the z-index leads to some half-baked fort layouts.  The wikis and tutorials throw me off because they have so many starting builds / layouts that it's hard to pick the "right one".  

For example, I don't really believe that a farm should be built by your front door, where it's basically on the front lines.  I'm starting to feel like it would be better to dig the entrance down, go through some defences, then up to an isolated farm room right under the surface that would be harder to get to by enemies.

Also, the main tutorial is somewhat obscure about which level to build a trading post and how the roads need to connect to it.  It obviously took a lot of work, but it didn't help me determine how to build my own trading post.

For now, I've gone back to the old version where it's a more challenging start, but I can at least see everything all at once, I can browse more "old" maps on the map archive, and I don't have to worry about FPS for now.  I like the fact that I always have a cave river and magma while I'm figuring things out.

Can anyone offer any advice?  I'll probably be up and running in another few weeks I'm sure but I just wanted to ask the question for some of you that have been playing this for longer than I have.  

Would you recommend the new version or the old version for new players that need good basic instructions and a lot of help in fortress design and dwarf management?

[Flok Speargrabber]

Both have a learning curve of, well, let's just say it's not exactly sledding territory.

[BurnedToast]

I'd say new, because it's not THAT much harder (and in fact in many ways is easier). Playing the old version will make you come to rely on things like the chasm and magma which are now very rare, better to get used to not having them.

Edit: trade depots no longer require roads at all, and you can build them on any z-level as long as the wagons have a way to get to them (press D to see if it does). Be warned there are a few bugs - wagons teleport through levels sometimes and you should build your broker and outpost leader's office on the top level so he can meet the liasons there because sometimes they get stuck underground.

the FPS thing is a big issue though, if you are having trouble running the new version with weather off you might want to stick with the old one - I could hit 100 fps with ~50 - 60 dwarves in the old version, this version it bogs down to like 30 fps on the smallest map with even 20 dwarves.

[ November 14, 2007: Message edited by: BurnedToast ]

[Morlark]

Current version is much easier for new players, by far. No question about it. The ability to farm without irrigation means that you can learn how to handle floodgates and levels and water flows at your own pace.

[ownedbyakorat]

Hiya... I am a new player and I found the old version to be far easier, primarily because it is not quite as complex and because there's more information to learn about it available. I also find it easier to plan and set goals in the older version. The newer version gives me feature shock, and with no documentation available I really feel lost as to what to do. It's also a lot easier to see/understand what you're doing when you only have 2 dimensions to worry about.

In the older version I have clear goals right at the start - tunnel through to the river, bridge across it, set up farms on the far side; once that's going head to the magma and get a metalworking operation set up. By the time that's up and running I've usually identified other things I want to do, depending on the map, terrain, and the size and timing of the first immigration wave.

The new version just leaves me stumped. Where do I start to dig? Go up? Go down? Stay on the same level? Where do I find the ores I'm looking for? What the heck am I supposed to do with orthoclase? How do I handle water? What are the implications of an aquifier? etc. etc. etc.... it's just so overwhelming. Had I not played the older version, though, I'd have been ten times as mystified starting a game in the new one. Even now I feel completely unprepared to tackle things like windmills and water pumps. If I had to use one word to describe the feeling of trying to come to grips with the latest version, that word would be "whoah".

The older version has no lack of depth - some of the veterans may have played it out for all it's worth, but a new player will not have done so.

I've been playing DF for about a month and a half now - after a few runs with the new one, I switched back to the old one just because there are so many things I still have to learn to get comfortable with all the game elements. Had I never seen the older version I don't know that I would even be able to get started on the new one.

[Kyselina]

New ver is better for new players. 100% sure

[Turgid Bolk]

I'm not a new player, so my perspective may be a little skewed, but I think the new version can be easier.

The new version is much more free-form and the lack of goals can be intimidating, but since you can take so much more supplies initially, you can basically mess around for a few years without worrying about food. Also, you can turn off moods and invasions (and even immigrants) in the init, giving a real sandbox to experiment in. Try building some different room designs in 3D, just start small. I'm really enjoying seeing what's possible on what maps, using "throwaway" forts.

You can farm without irrigation in the new version, too. Pick a map with sand or loamy soil, and you're set. What's more, you can grow some crops in winter. Old-version nile farming is just as easy, though.

That's why I think the new version's easier, as a somewhat experienced player. You can definetely get your bearings with the old version, but you'll have to re-learn a few things when you switch to the new, is all.

[kuribo]

I had tried the old version before, and found the new version WAY easier to get into. The Z axis adds alot of depth (no pun intended) to what you can do with your fortress.

[Languidiir]

Why rely on the wiki for your design? If you feel that the farm should be lower down, make the damn farm lower down.

It's your fortress, not the wiki's.

[uberubert]

I also believe that new players may be frightened by the z-axis system.. Start your fortress in a mountain, and you will probably be able to build most of your fortress on ONE level (the level your dwarves start on).

Also, in this game, you WILL fail at things, which is Fun!   Starting some fortresses just to experiment with digging, z-levels, roomdesigns, combat etc is a good way to learn the game. Make a party just to test aspects of the game. Take lots of food and alcohol, a pick, an axe, lots of seeds, and try out various actions. Build various workshops, and see what they do. draft some military, and fight some monsters. Dig some stairs, and learn how the z-axis works. Get a feel for how big rooms and hallways should be..

And.. USE THE WIKI!  

[Elitay]

I just started here as well (Also from jayisgames.com) and I would suggest the new version. The learning curve wasn't that bad, once my eyes adjusted to the text-graphics.

[Sifu]

I just started (read a new version announcement on Blue's News) and I'm loving the current version. Being able to mine by digging *down* is excellent. I've also built a moat of steaming hot magma around my fortress, completely filled one fortress with water (drowning all my dwarves), and so on. I take it these things weren't possible with the older version.

There is a learning curve of a few hours to figure everything out (what is potash for? how do you get bags? etc.), but the options really make the game.

[Gelmax]

I find that a major complaint with this game is "what should I be doing?". People tend to want clear goals from a game which is really all about screwing around and having fun. Sure, in the old version, you had to immediately devote yourself to digging for the river, starting a farm, and heading to the magma for metalworking...but what then? From there it's all about ludicrous constructions for the hell of it. Dwarf Fortress is not a game where you should be looking up good fortress layouts on a wiki. Browsing others' maps additionally has the problem that you can't distinguish between wise design decisions and a player screwing around for the hell of it, so it's not really a good way to learn the game - my old-version fortress, for example, has several workshops in a frequently flooded tree farm/enemy entrance area, the main food stockpile right by the entrance, and a coin vault by the magma river sealed by five doors each forged of precious metals.

Personally, I don't plan to run the new version just yet...but that's because I've got a fort going in the old version and it'd be a waste to junk it without at least putting my drowning hall to use.

[Mr_Quack]

I started playing Dwarf Fort around December of last year although I didn't play it for the full 11 months. I'd play for a month and then stop for 2 and then start again. So you could say I've been playing for a while now. Even now my forts probably seem horribly inefficient to people who try to work out the "best" designs. I still enjoy the game just as much as anyone though maybe more than others because my fortresses are made by me without the help of guides. Anyways, back on the topic of which version is easier. First off somethings I haven't gotten into such as using power or fertilizing farms. Personally I'd say that I think the newer version is easier but that could be just because I've been playing for so long that I know how to do everything. The biggest benefit I think is the ability to farm in any soil, year-round, without water. I took me a long time to figure out farming in the old version and nile farming didn't occur to me until I has been playing for some time. So for new players farming might be easier to figure out in the new version. I also believe you have a lot more space in the new version because of the Z-levels but I guess that could be confusing to new players. Also in the old version my forts would always seem to fall apart after I had gotten a few nobles. (Although nobles were probably easier to understand in the old version) Now I don't have any problems with them in the new version but again that could be due to my experience with the game. Also being able to start with loads of supplies from ditching the anvil helps. Everyone has their own opinion but I myself find the newer version to be easier.
Sorry if this response is a little lengthy but I have a lot to say and could probably keep going.

[The Mole]

Thanks all,  I think that I'll go with the majority and switch back to the new version.

To Gelmax's point - the open system was difficult for me to get started with.  I was expecting a somewhat linear start, and a lot of the information is "try this next time for fun".  In the new game, the additional supplies usually means you'll make it much longer before needing to do anything survival related.

I'm glad that I did run a couple old games though, just to try out some basic room sizes, dwarf commands, irrigation, and some fort layouts in a 2d style.  The main reason why I'm going back is that I starve a lot in the old game.  I can get a farm running, but I always run out of supplies of some sort before long.

My favorite loss to date:

The trade caravan comes and I'm starving.  I have a farm that is irrigated but flashing (not built), and no trade crafts or trading post built.

My farmers die while locked in the farm room, where the rest of the dwarves die while trying to negotiate nice shiny stone blocks, elaborate beds, and large barrels for food.