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Author Topic: Conversation  (Read 437 times)

GoblinCookie

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2017, 02:26:08 pm »

Folks could discuss work and pass on work small amounts of work skills maybe?  Particularly useful for something like swimming that cannot really be learned safely by experience.
That'd be good. Have some training going on between companions like in Fortress mode. That's going quite a bit beyond conversation though.

I think the problem is that 'camp for 10 hours' or 'build a hut for 3 days' all happens off-screen (and most would prefer it that way) and that's where all the friendship forming conversations between companions would take place. Which leaves you with offering the player the choice of seeing what they're talking about or not. And if you do that you've lost the natural spontaneous nature of DF conversation.

A bit of flavor text for the 'time passes' screen would be kind of interesting I suppose. Not sure if it achieves what the op was after.

Camp for 2 days
...
Urist teaches Roder how to bite
...
Udir recalls the battle between you and a Kea which occurred 2 days ago
...
Sleeping
...
Urist prays to Zam Powerswords God of light, dark, hope and torture
...

The problem is basically the same as the economy.  The problem of given that everyone does not exist when we are not here how can things possibly work consistently.

The solution is to use metrics.  If during play X amount happens in Y time, we simply upload what happens to the metrics that control the global values underlying the system. Basically we start with a generic value and then when the player offloads we calculate what is actually going to change in a given day based upon how long the site was offloaded, changing the value accordingly.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2017, 05:05:06 pm »

That...has nothing to do with small talk...or skill training within an adventurer party...or anything really.

--Awaits thread destroying massive walk of text to explain why small-talk is impossible without a complex socio-political model in place--
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Novel Scoops

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2017, 06:57:40 pm »

Okay, back on topic. Is there any alternative to the system we've proposed? Like i said, Toady has floated the idea but he's dismissed it as immersion breaking.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2017, 08:42:56 pm »

Okay, back on topic. Is there any alternative to the system we've proposed? Like i said, Toady has floated the idea but he's dismissed it as immersion breaking.
I agree with Toady, switching screens is immersion breaking, abstract conversation is too (and I don't think there's a natural place to put it).

Simply adding value discussions makes npcs (especially arguing companions) seem so much more alive than they were before.

More variety of responses, filtered background noise on crowds (and chance to focus on topics of interest) and a smattering of location awareness would enhance the current system.

Then variations on everything based on personality and relationship. And a mechanism to adjust your own tone maybe.

It's a lot of monotonous typing for Toady, but it'll make a big difference I think.

Now, when romance is introduced it'll get complicated. Maybe it'll all be poetry, gift giving and late night dancing but something slightly more robust is probably needed.
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Dyret

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2017, 09:08:55 pm »

--Awaits thread destroying massive walk of text to explain why small-talk is impossible without a complex socio-political model in place--
<3

Sortofish on topic I don't really care which system he goes with, they both serve their purpose as far as I'm concerned, if the current conversations get too repetitive throw in even more lines. NPCs need to get way better at recognizing context across the board though, in either case, like maybe not go on about how enjoyable it is to improve your fighting when said fight has cost you both arms and your balls.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 09:10:45 pm by Dyret »
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Novel Scoops

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2017, 10:56:31 pm »

And a mechanism to adjust your own tone maybe.

So you'd add that on something like the URR system? I'm not actually sure trying to put your own spin on one of several premade lines is actually preferable to a more vague system. You'll become an actor choosing how to deliver his lines rather then a guy making a point.

I like the idea of copying URR and adding a lot of variation depending on the character, but you can't prepare every conceivable sentence. I think you've got to use something vague for the edge cases so players can say weird shit.

So, you'd end up with something like;

"Where is the chef?"
"Why would i tell you, *insult*?"
You expound on the virtues of silence in the eyes of the anathi people. The elf looks amused. Offhandedly, you conclude with a mention of their genocide at your hands. The speech is full of dry menace.
"He's in the shower. Hey man, there's a therapist in Oldtown. I'm just saying."
The tattooed elf backs away slowly.

I think that flows pretty well.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 11:15:10 pm by Novel Scoops »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2017, 05:50:07 am »

That...has nothing to do with small talk...or skill training within an adventurer party...or anything really.

--Awaits thread destroying massive walk of text to explain why small-talk is impossible without a complex socio-political model in place--

It does. 
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Novel Scoops

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2017, 04:17:37 pm »

Are you worried it will be weird if companions can teach skills and exchange information, but say rival adventurer parties can't?

If you're concerned about whether the system itself is feasible, i'm pretty confident.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2017, 05:13:45 pm »

Are you worried it will be weird if companions can teach skills and exchange information, but say rival adventurer parties can't?

If you're concerned about whether the system itself is feasible, i'm pretty confident.
Player fortress dorfs currently train each other, even though no-one else in the world can manage it. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have your adventuring companions do the same. Just skip some time, same as building a hut.

But perhaps at this point, Toady would rather simulate something more universal for all sites and adventuring parties.

Not sure what would happen if all those goblin hordes started training every day for hundreds of years before attacking you though...
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Novel Scoops

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2017, 08:49:03 pm »

Come to think of it, you need some kind of interrupt system. 3 options;

  • Long-winded speeches will provide a "interrupt?" prompt halfway through
  • People who want to interrupt eveybody all the time can enable a option which provides the prompt every turn
  • You should be able to interrupt retroactively, in case succinct but mindblowing information is provided and the above options weren't available.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2017, 06:56:54 am »

Player fortress dorfs currently train each other, even though no-one else in the world can manage it. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have your adventuring companions do the same. Just skip some time, same as building a hut.

But perhaps at this point, Toady would rather simulate something more universal for all sites and adventuring parties.

Not sure what would happen if all those goblin hordes started training every day for hundreds of years before attacking you though...

That is a problem with training in general, actually a problem with skills in general.  What the game badly needs is skill caps, so that not everybody can become a legendary whatever in just a few years of training, whether this is formal training or just work conversations along the lines I suggested earlier.  Actually the game needs three caps, the first is the amount that can be obtained without a specific trainer of higher skill, the second is the amount that can be obtained from training in general and the third is the total maximum a given individual can obtain. 

The goblin hordes training for 100s of years will not become invincible because there is a maximum limit to how good a creature can get through training.  To exceed that the creature would have to actually practice the skill for real and would still be capped at any rate.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2017, 08:05:13 am »

Player fortress dorfs currently train each other, even though no-one else in the world can manage it. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have your adventuring companions do the same. Just skip some time, same as building a hut.

But perhaps at this point, Toady would rather simulate something more universal for all sites and adventuring parties.

Not sure what would happen if all those goblin hordes started training every day for hundreds of years before attacking you though...

That is a problem with training in general, actually a problem with skills in general.  What the game badly needs is skill caps, so that not everybody can become a legendary whatever in just a few years of training, whether this is formal training or just work conversations along the lines I suggested earlier.  Actually the game needs three caps, the first is the amount that can be obtained without a specific trainer of higher skill, the second is the amount that can be obtained from training in general and the third is the total maximum a given individual can obtain. 

The goblin hordes training for 100s of years will not become invincible because there is a maximum limit to how good a creature can get through training.  To exceed that the creature would have to actually practice the skill for real and would still be capped at any rate.
Yes, agree with this. It should take several years of training and real-life practice to get anyone to a half-decent level. When we can start interacting with the surrounding pops we should hire soldiers to do real soldiering and train low level militia rabble in their downtime to fend of keas and giant rats.

Of course, it's 'fantasy simulation' and not 'real-life simulation' and there's always the odd immortal character in fantasy books who's won thousands of duels and is close to invincible in one on one combat. So absolute caps for training sure but perhaps fractional increases for actual practice that would be unnoticeable except after many hundreds of battles.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Conversation
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2017, 07:46:51 am »

That is a problem with training in general, actually a problem with skills in general.  What the game badly needs is skill caps, so that not everybody can become a legendary whatever in just a few years of training, whether this is formal training or just work conversations along the lines I suggested earlier.  Actually the game needs three caps, the first is the amount that can be obtained without a specific trainer of higher skill, the second is the amount that can be obtained from training in general and the third is the total maximum a given individual can obtain. 

The goblin hordes training for 100s of years will not become invincible because there is a maximum limit to how good a creature can get through training.  To exceed that the creature would have to actually practice the skill for real and would still be capped at any rate.

I think there should be a absolute cap for individuals, determined randomly based upon character and attributes.  That would be among other things necessary to give the adventurer's labour an economic value to sites (with a functioning economy). 
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