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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 377846 times)

FallacyofUrist

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3480 on: June 29, 2017, 09:01:24 pm »

I w-was soooo close...

Cannon Silencer: Using a special coating of very thin specially made crystal around the barrel of any of our guns from the largest to the smallest, we can vastly decrease the amount of noise they make when they fire. This lets them be fired at a slightly higher speed given that our men no longer need to hunker down before firing a gun, but more importantly it makes the AS-R1 far more useful for sniping by making it much harder to tell where that shot came from, increasing their usefulness for our future Catgirl Assassins or Catboy Snipers.

Quote from: Hail Cat
1 - Cannon Silencer - FallacyofUrist
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3481 on: June 29, 2017, 09:05:32 pm »

Satin Flares
These flares are imbues with a transformative persistence. Instead of merely glowing by the whims, they imbue light into the surrounding material, creating illuminated air which remains aloft indefinitely, spreading out like glowing fabric, and only losing their glow once the magic is dispersed utterly. This allows a single flare to illuminate a larger area for longer, and for a host of flares to illuminate an entire region of airspace and the cumulative effect makes them largely impossible to disperse, as it is just flares being pushed into other flares with no critical lack of flares ever being encountered. This ought to be enough to completely negate aerial stealth within flare-range...


But mostly I want to warm up our light magic for optical enhancements...
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3482 on: June 29, 2017, 09:09:53 pm »

Eeuhh. I really feel we should spend a revision on the Protector. On its own I doubt it'd be a huge help to us during combat.
Namely expense. Very Expensive items just don't help much historically. And when the vehicle in question is to carry troops about, I doubt it'd be particularly useful when it's rare.

I've got some ideas, but I'd really prefer to discuss them on Discord. I can definitely do it here if someone else starts, but it's generally easier to discuss something back-and-forth on Discord.
So far:
- Caterpillar Treads: Try fixing our mechanical problems + wheels, increasing the versatility of the vehicle, increasing its speed, etc.
- Expense: See top part. Things like this should be Expensive to have a real impact.
- Anti-magic Resistance: Duh.
- I'd really like to do expense + something else. So if someone has an idea fitting a revision that can do it, please say so.

Also apparently RIP Crystalworks bonus.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3483 on: June 29, 2017, 09:41:46 pm »

I don't actually have access to the discord right not, but yea. I was gonna say treads, but it looks like you already got that one. I would say simplifying/improving either the engine or the gear shift. Making it less complex will probably make it cheaper as well.

I'm hesitant to ask for any more than a few things on the revision though. Probably no more than that.
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3484 on: June 29, 2017, 10:07:25 pm »

It is a landship, I think that the price is reasonable considering that it accounts for 10 soldiers, it is matched against things like 10 crystal axes. It could probably go down a category with effort, but I wouldn't discredit the presence of our crystal and metal bonuses. Unless you have some clear idea as to how to reduce the expense, such as using standard crystals(and implying that clear crystals are more expensive in doing so), or reducing the armour(Which is actually a good idea, given that expense and mobility are the main problems), or have some wondrous new cheat like making a giant crystalworks to reduce the effect of volume on expense then I wouldn't expect costs to go down. It would at least be a revision of its own.

Antimagic resistance is not a revision. It is a dedicated design.

Very expensive is enough to maintain a presence across territory, which is about as much as we can hope for from something like this.

Caterpillar tracks are impossible. We can do it with magic, sure, but the materials simply do not exist to make something sufficiently flexible and durable. Even linked crystal plates would be hoping for too much. It is back to the issue of conveyors. It is the year 1000ish, conveyor belts are not happening unless magic is intervening. If we want to make a shiny new plant with bark that is just right for conveyors? A little bit of stretchiness, zero permanent degradation, largely impervious to cutting or piercing outside of special efforts used in construction... Such a thing would have value in reinforcing armour, spall protection, clean socks, invulnerable flags, weather-proof sails... It is not something that we can't do if we invest the magic into doing it, but it is quite impossible through mundane means. So, basically, this is a design for a new material. Or maybe we want flexible rubber-crystals from a revision...

I w-was soooo close...

Cannon Silencer: Using a special coating of very thin specially made crystal around the barrel of any of our guns from the largest to the smallest, we can vastly decrease the amount of noise they make when they fire. This lets them be fired at a slightly higher speed given that our men no longer need to hunker down before firing a gun, but more importantly it makes the AS-R1 far more useful for sniping by making it much harder to tell where that shot came from, increasing their usefulness for our future Catgirl Assassins or Catboy Snipers.

Quote from: Hail Cat
2 - Cannon Silencer - FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Satin Flares -
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Draignean

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3485 on: June 29, 2017, 10:12:04 pm »

Caterpillar tracks are impossible. We can do it with magic, sure, but the materials simply do not exist to make something sufficiently flexible and durable. Even linked crystal plates would be hoping for too much. It is back to the issue of conveyors. It is the year 1000ish, conveyor belts are not happening unless magic is intervening. If we want to make a shiny new plant with bark that is just right for conveyors? A little bit of stretchiness, zero permanent degradation, largely impervious to cutting or piercing outside of special efforts used in construction... Such a thing would have value in reinforcing armour, spall protection, clean socks, invulnerable flags, weather-proof sails... It is not something that we can't do if we invest the magic into doing it, but it is quite impossible through mundane means. So, basically, this is a design for a new material. Or maybe we want flexible rubber-crystals from a revision...

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren't caterpillar tracks a thing that already happened on the original restless?

It seems rather unfounded to state that they're impossible when, to the best of my knowledge, they would already existed were it not for a design miscommunication.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3486 on: June 29, 2017, 10:14:34 pm »

Right. The problem with the tread revision is expense. As buggy as the Protector may be right now, it works. It may not be particularly fast and may not have the most durable of wheels, but it can safely bring our men across the battlefield and provide combat support. The problem is that we just won't have enough to make a difference. The design relies on having enough to transport our men. We could do a combined forces type of thing and have it move with our men across no man's land, but then there's the survival rate of the non-protected men.

Point is, it does its job - protects the people inside and brings them across the battlefield. It could do its job much better, but it does it. We just need to have enough of them to make a difference.

Now if only there was some way to combine AM Resistance with an expense reduction. Ooh!


Revision: Crystalworks Mk2 (If anyone has a better name, please tell me. Like something to make Crystalworks sound more industrial/big/encompassing.)

The Crystalworks is an effective tool. Or was. As of late, it hasn't been pulling its load. Our most recent designs simply haven't benefited as they should. According to our Crystalworks engineers, the scale of the designs such as the Steam Engine (and now the IDE) as well as the AS-LFV-1 are simply too great to benefit from the cost reduction the Crystalworks provides.

We've had massive amounts of experience with Crystal since we introduced the Crystalworks. We've figured out the best ways to use it to make larger-scale things like parts for our vehicles. We've used it to make Crystal Glass and Insulating Crystal. We know the in and outs of it. Now it's time to make it better.

We expand the Crystalworks to allow for a more industrial approach. Our improved Magegems are made use of to allow the same number of apprentices to manage more things at once. The building is expanded, and the individual fabricator circuits tweaked to allow for bigger constructions.
This, of course, is tremendously easy. Design reports may say a lot of things are easy, but this is for sure. We know so much about how to get the most potential out of the Crystal works and have had intimate experience with its quirks and flaws. We know exactly what to do and should be able to address it in remarkable times.

As the final part of this revision, possible due to the ease in which we should be able to do the former part, we will also adjust insulating crystal. We've had experience with anti-magic, with using crystal glass to store magic in our improved Magegems, and we've had experience with insulating electricity, a form of energy vaguely similar to that of magic. We use this experience to tweak insulating crystal (or a variant of it) into also insulating against magic.
This isn't some kind of anti-magic device, but rather a device working against anti-magic. Anti-magic "saps" the magic from our circuits, preventing their operation. If we can create a crystal insulating against magic, we can prevent the loss of magic from our circuits and thus prevent anti-magic from affecting our circuits. Perhaps even if we create an enclosed space with AM-Resistant crystal, mages inside could cast spells as normal. But the priority is of course on circuits here.

This new insulating crystal variant is of course to be considered a part of the Crystalworks renovations. As our engineers expand the Crystalworks and upgrade the fabricators, they will also implement the changes to insulating crystal, allowing us to make this magic-insulating AM-resistant crystal.

The overall goal of the design is the increased scale of the Crystalworks first, and the rest second. But it shouldn't be extremely difficult to implement both considering our experience in the field with the latter and our extreme preparedness for the former.
This new Crystalworks should be able to help produce larger designs, decreasing the expense of them just like it does for our other designs. The insulating crystal made possible by this new Crystalworks should allow us to make AM-resistant technology. We expect to make our larger Crystal designs drop in expense, namely the AS-LFV-1 Protector and if time allows, also the IDE/Steam engine. The new AM-resistant crystal is to be prioritized for implementation in the AS-LFV-1 first and other designs (like the AS-R1) second.

TL;DR: Upgrade Crystalworks (using our massive amount of Crystalworks experience+knowledge) in scale (allowing for Crystalworks expense reduction in bigger designs) and to make AM-resistant Crystal for immediate use in the AS-LFV-1. The immediate prioritized effects should be an Expensive AM-resistant AS-LFV-1, with implementations of the new stuff lower in priority, like cost reducing the IDE/Steam engine and AM-resistant-izing our other magitech like the AS-R1.
TL;DR TL;DR: Upgrade Crystalworks to make bigger stuff also drop in expense according to the Crystalworks bonus and to make anti-magic resistant crystal for immediate use in the Protector then maybe the AS-R1. Biggest priority is applying the expense bonus to large-scale projects and thus the AS-LFV-1 Protector. Anti-magic resistance stuff is second.




I kind of want to do the LFV-2 next design. Make a really well-done vehicle. But I know that it definitely would have zero support. But we could address all of the problems at once and add more.


@RAM: Caterpillar Tracks are literally possible.
Remember the first Restless design? That Evicted accidently made when he thought by "tracks" in the Restless design I meant caterpillar tracks? That was with zero experience in powered land vehicles?
We got caterpillar tracks at only a -1 to Effectiveness+Bugs, with zero experience in ever making powered land vehicles beforehand. (Draignean ninja'd me on this)

AM Resistance is not a dedicated design. It is a revision. Evicted already said our circuits are close to AM Resistance (and that our Magegems are AM-resistant).
Expense-wise, you'd be wrong. Very Expensive has historically meant we just get a handful of the design. Like we had ~3 HA1s per theater when they were Very Expensive.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 05:09:07 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3487 on: June 30, 2017, 02:17:48 am »

There is one fatal flaw.

Does the protector have any armor at all?

I do not see that mentioned.

Right now it looks like a very fancy coffin for when they decide to strike it with lightning.

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3488 on: June 30, 2017, 02:26:58 am »

The Protector definitely has armor, and honestly, lightning protection probably wasn't even necessary.
I remember when they first made their lightning useful. The men on our Crystalclads hid below the deck during lightning attacks for safety. We can easily infer that our crystal constructions protect our men. Sure, when it's personal armor that surrounds the person and only them, lightning can be lethal. But I doubt it'd be lethal against something of similar type to a vehicle (Crystalclad) lightning is definitively not useful against.

Considering what we know of crystal armor already, the fact that it got a 4 in effectiveness, and the fact that Evicted didn't mention any problems, I'm 100% sure our armor is effective against anything they can throw against us. Lightning I'm 90% sure, though.


And I'm going to vote for my own Crystalworks Mk2 revision for now. If anyone has a better idea regarding the Protector just say so!

Quote
2 - Cannon Silencer: FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Satin Flares:
1 - Crystalworks Mk2: Chiefwaffles
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Andres

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3489 on: June 30, 2017, 02:39:10 am »

I w-was soooo close...

Cannon Silencer: Using a special coating of very thin specially made crystal around the barrel of any of our guns from the largest to the smallest, we can vastly decrease the amount of noise they make when they fire. This lets them be fired at a slightly higher speed given that our men no longer need to hunker down before firing a gun, but more importantly it makes the AS-R1 far more useful for sniping by making it much harder to tell where that shot came from, increasing their usefulness for our future Catgirl Assassins or Catboy Snipers.

Quote from: Hail Cat
1 - Cannon Silencer - FallacyofUrist
This is a bad version of a silencer. I will improve upon the base concept.

Silence Circuits: These circuits absorb nearby sound and transform it into magic energy. This creates a silencing effect and can recharge magegems connected to the circuits.

Just add these circuits to anything you want quiet and not only will it be quiet, but it'll also generate magic energy. We could apply it to anything from guns to engines.

Glory to Arstotzka.
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helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3490 on: June 30, 2017, 02:42:41 am »

About the cannon silencer.

It is already mentioned that the R1 is well suited to sniping. The lack of smoke + the ability to be fired from a prone position makes them near undetectable at present.

Certainly, we could eliminate the sound and muzzle flash, but it seems unnecessary at present. Es has already said they are hard to detect.

As for the artillery, I don't think they hunker down because of the sound.

Also, I looked up irl artillery silencers. They are fricken massive! And super expensive. I know we are just magicing the sounds away, but still...
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3491 on: June 30, 2017, 03:02:34 am »

The silencers are an extraordinarily temporary solution to a minor problem.

Keep in mind Moskurg literally has a cheap Detect Ambush spell. Furthermore, it's a starter spell. Something that would be insanely easy to modify as they please. If we want to invest further in stealth, we are going to be having to deal with a lot of easy Moskurg counters. Hell, I bet if we tried to invest in stealth more their counter would completely obsolete all of our stealth efforts, not just the improvements provoking their counter.

Right now we have effective semi-stealthy snipers. They are a minor factor, but that's a point which I'm not making right now. Regardless of however minor a factor they are, they work.
If we make them more lethal to Moskurg, you know what Moskurg will do? They'll counter all of it. If we make our snipers able to fire silently, Moskurg will very easily devise their Detect Ambush spell to "Detect Stealth" or "Detect Sniper" or "Detect Ninja". This will completely ruin our advantage in terms of stealth, making it much worse than before we ever tried to improve it. Sure, we could try countering their counter, but in this area it'd just be easier for Moskurg due to their extreme experience in the area. We'll be stuck trying repeatedly to counter their coutners, which they easily undo + more with revisions. They'll be free to focus on lessening our advantage in other areas while we waste our time trying to make stealth nearly as good as it is now.

Point is, if we try to upgrade our stealth capabilities without significant thought, we'll get into a game of counters where we will lose. There's also the point where a cheaper Protector would be much better than increased survivability of our snipers, but that should be obvious at this time.


(Vote for Crystalworks Mk2! It's the best option!)



EDIT: This isn't to say that stealth investment is an overall bad idea. It's just not something that should be done carelessly. If we do upgrade stealth, I think we should start by doing it subtly. Incorporate minor stealth aspects into new designs as tertiary features. Wait until we have enough investment so our stealth can't be instantly and very easily hard countered.
But stealth investment is inferior to upgrading the Protector. It's a useful design. We just need to lower its expense so we can actually make use of it. Very Expensive designs have historically never been that useful. Remember the HA1? How it was a niche item until we made it Expensive, then dominated in every theater until Moskurg developed air units? It's like that.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 03:09:56 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

VoidSlayer

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3492 on: June 30, 2017, 03:11:02 am »

Revision: Reverse engineer flying carpet levitation effect.

We have gained ground in every theater, we surly have enough samples of half ruined carpets to put a full one together and figure out how the levitation effects work.

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3493 on: June 30, 2017, 04:03:52 am »

Actually, reversing the antimagic charm to turn sound into magic is a hugely good idea. It ought to be revision-level as a straight reversal, although I could see it being a design, except with all of our efforts on the charms already... We must have about 5 designs and several revisions by now... It would be a good step towards magic generators and the ambush detection is just a thing that tells you if you are walking into a trap. Upgrading that into a danger sense would be a huge undertaking, and going onwards from that to a locator spell would be huge, and it would need to be a 'general' locator spell, "find all enemies in a large area" type overpowered mess. If they want to spend three designs on that then let them!

I would further like to suggest that the silencer be an inversion of the antimagic charm that directs the magic of the charm back into the circuitry of the weapon, much as the steam condenser sent the steam back into its own mechanisms.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3494 on: June 30, 2017, 04:54:00 am »

Detect Ambush:  Reveals non-magical ambushes prepared by enemy troops or physical traps.
That's not "a thing that jut tells you if you are walking into a trap." That's a very general use spell.
It's not a long jump to change that. What's the difference between snipers and an ambush really?

Also as a note, the Protector is fairly useless right now. It has a lot of potential but if we just ignore it this turn that's a design wasted. A handful of Protectors will not change anything. It has great potential to really help us but we need to spend at least a single revision on it first. Let's not let our design go to waste.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!
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