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Author Topic: Wands Race - [Arstotzka] {COMPLETED}  (Read 377051 times)

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3705 on: July 07, 2017, 05:53:21 pm »

You very clearly have a wrong different definition of hard counters than me in that case, RAM.

And the living wall seems like a waste, honestly. We have Aethergems and Magegems. Why make our spell require numerous mages with a mage shortage on hand when we can make something that doesn't need mages at all?
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3706 on: July 07, 2017, 06:13:51 pm »

Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane": Voidslayer, Draignean
2 - Aethergem Fitting: Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Aethergem Shells:
0 - Academy Aethergems:
0 - Temporary Wizards:
0 - Weightite works:
0 - Gemerators:
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres
1 - Aethergem recharging pack: RAM
1 - Better Aethergems: Chiefwaffles
1 - Duststorm Equalizer: FallacyofUrist

0 Save the credit:

I just realized that someone reverted the url change in Aethergem Fitting. While keeping the name. Somehow.
So I fixed it. "Aethergem Fitting" in the above vote quote thing now leads to the actual revision.



EDIT: After asking Evicted on Discord, I was informed that with a single item, we'd basically be able to get what we wanted with anything other than a 1, and maybe even with a 1. Doing more than one fitting is possible but a bit harder. I also ordered the priorities of the items to be fitted.
Spoiler: Full Quote (click to show/hide)

(Also I just realized I double-posted. I'm so sorry!)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 08:20:31 pm by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3707 on: July 07, 2017, 10:00:34 pm »


Quote
3 - HA1-b "Mundane": Voidslayer, Draignean, helmacon
2 - Aethergem Fitting: Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Aethergem Shells:
0 - Academy Aethergems:
0 - Temporary Wizards:
0 - Weightite works:
0 - Gemerators:
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres
1 - Aethergem recharging pack: RAM
1 - Better Aethergems: Chiefwaffles
1 - Duststorm Equalizer: FallacyofUrist

0 Save the credit:

Orders:
2 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon
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RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3708 on: July 07, 2017, 11:19:51 pm »

Universal Nodes for Circuitry Lodging(U.N.C.L.)
We review circuit-interactions and hammer out the finer details of getting a circuit to interact with a device. This is intended to ensures that we will always be able to connect devices together.

 Small common units like the various gems will always be designed along with a simple socket that can easily be worked into any circuit, circuitry sealed within leather pockets can be used for circuit "cables" to attach circuits together via standardised "access points" that can be integrated into any circuit, so as to attach larger devices to other circuits using cables, control-patterns will be codified that can be used to protect a circuit, forcing the attachments points to deteriorate before any damage is done to the inner-workings of the circuit due to being attached to a circuit with incompatible forces. And the forces will be codified and standardised to ensure that as many circuits as possible are compatible with one another.

The inability of our circuits to be modified to incorporate a new power-source is just embarrassing. We know enough about circuits that sorting out the current mess of generations of different circuit philosophy should be pretty easy. We just have to stop using a dozen different methods to get the same result and we should be able to reliably connect any two devices together. The value of attaching two cannons together might be minimal, perhaps lucky to even get them to share a power-source or fire simultaneously, but being unable to simply incorporate a new power source into our existing devices conclusively proves that our engineers have been too busy tinkering with new layouts and haven't bothered to get the circuits working in a consistent and reliable fashion.

We hope that this will grant us access to "orders" to attach devices together with no chance of severe failure.


You very clearly have a wrong different definition of hard counters than me in that case, RAM.
My off-hand list of hard counters:
Protector is a good example of a hard-counter to artillery that failed. It is too slow to catch the artillery so it just plods along however long it takes to break down. Breaking down isn't what ruins them, plenty of them don't break down, they just don't achieve their role of getting things to the battlefield because much of the battlefield moves faster than they do.
Crystal layering is an example of a hard-counter to lightning that may or may not work. If the idea of "their lightning spells, which they have spent many designs on, suddenly have no effect on any of the forces that we send into its influence" is not a hard counter than I don't know what is.
Antimagic charms are a hard-counter to mind-reading that was very expensive but had a lot of potential. It worked, it still works.
Antimagic fields are a hard-counter to then entire school of conjuration that works just fine so long as they don't need magic to avoid terminal velocity. We managed to counter it with a full design, and only for a single field of conjuration. Webs, caltrops, wasps, and fog are all still basically useless against their ground forces. And also useless against their air forces too, which reflects that their air forces are a hard counter to all our hand-to-hand weapons. Basically everything short ranged, and our contact-explosives.
Their artillery was a hard-counter to our entire army. We didn't recover from that. Protectors are an attempt, but are basically insignificant. More to the point, they would be more than a single revision spent countering the enemy's hard counter. Does anyone else actually remember what happened when artillery first appeared? They sent enough spears into our ranks to half our effective numbers. I still kind of suspect that they invented flechette cluster munitions along with the design. We never broke that hard-counter, we just matched it with some theoretical stuff we had been working on.
Adamantine is a hard counter to fireballs and frost towers. It is VERY difficult to describe frost towers and fireballs as not being worth it. How, precisely, are we to counter adamantine's thermal immunity with a revision? If it has any chance of working I will probably vote for it. Now, normally that would be a pretty big "if" but I have seen the G.M. pull some amazing backflips in order to get our stuff to work regardless of how messed up the proposal is, so I am finally willing to ease up a little on complete nonsense that remains nonsensical in the context of magic. I will just accept that the design is about intent, rather than method. Even though coming up with magical methods seems like more fun and ought to get us bonuses...
Basically, things that render something else insignificant or nonfunctional. I really can't see how anyone could have a definition that diverges significantly from that. Maybe you actually disagree with how severe these things are? I mean, the artillery was not "that" hard of a counter, but it was pretty much consistently impossible to win after being hit by it. The rest of them are much more severe then just artillery blunting armies before they get into sight of each other. But probably the best examples of hard counters that work are adamantine and antimagic. They basically turn off entire schools of magic and antimagic is still working on conjuration and we have actually spent a design on that issue. Perhaps you want to revise the frost towers to cause rusting somehow? Oxidisation would kill crews faster than it would rust metal, but everyone knows that metal is weak to rust attacks, so I guess it would work that way... But how to turn a frost tower into a frozen rust tower?

But why debate definitions when you provide a fresh an up-to-date example of exactly what a hard-counter is.
To me, at least, a hard counter is basically what I said earlier. Like this:

Quote
Moskurg: I use my wind attack!
Arstotzka: Nuh-uh! I have an invisible shield that makes me immune against wind attacks!
Now lets change some words around...
Quote
Moskurg: I use my lightning attack!
Arstotzka: Nuh-uh! I have a crystal armour that makes me immune against lightning attacks!
Perhaps you might be able to see why I am a little confused here? I am quite certain that you have proposed what is, quite specifically, a shield that makes someone immune to lightning. Or is that yet another thing that I am obviously just making up, regardless of how many sources I might site? Please either stop proposing hard counters or stop telling other people to stop proposing hard counters.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 02:52:49 am by RAM »
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helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3709 on: July 08, 2017, 05:35:28 am »

Sustained aether field emitter.  (S.A.F.E.)

Superimpose an artificial magical field in a small area around the device that bypasses the traditional aether connection.
Our aether gems mimic the connection to the natural aether, but don't actual form a real connection. By changing the "frequency" of the aether generated by the gems, we can create a secondary magical field. Their anti magic blocks access to the natural aether, but trained mages can tap into this secondary frequency to continue to perform magic in the area around the device.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3710 on: July 08, 2017, 11:21:28 pm »


Revision: HA1-b "Mundane" [3]

The first integration of the brand-new Aethergems into pre-existing equipment, the "Mundane" sports a rather humble name despite the dangerous threat it presents. 

Normally an HA1 requires three mages casting PSF-C's in unison to generate the necessary force required to propel the heavy shell the distances required; because an A-level Aethergem can be exhausted for a single PSF-C that means the artillery piece can be fired without any mages whatsoever. 

To fire the Mundane, three A-level Aethergems are slotted into a powering station that's wired to the cannon via a set of crystal cables.  The sliding bolt is pulled back and a new shell (whether it's an ordinary iron shell or an explosive range-extended shell) is slid in place by hand.  The bolt is slid back and locked in place, and a simple switch completes the circuit between the powering station and an additional circuit that generates the three simultaneous PSF-C blasts.

What was once entirely mage-required can now be operated by mundane, magic-less troops in the field.  This is the first time a job that had been exclusively a mages has been replaced by technology, and though some are worried about their own obsoletion most are thrilled to find they're no longer required for such lack-luster purposes. 

Unfortunately, the expensive nature of A-level Aethergems means most HA1-b's are outfitted with only three, and though they can be slotted in and out for fresh gems we simply don't have enough to go around.  However, if we are for whatever reason without mages, it is comforting to know our most valuable asset can still be operated...at one round every ten minutes.  Very Expensive.

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3711 on: July 08, 2017, 11:50:08 pm »

Seems mildly useless considering the expense.
Historically, Very Expensive weapons just haven't been great. The HA1 was Very Expensive at first and made a very small impact until we made it just Expensive, which was the reason we won in all theatres that round. A design can be great, but if it's Very Expensive and not explicitly designed as a really powerful weapon that one would expect to be Very Expensive, historically it won't have a huge impact.


No AM resistance, so fixing the Protector is useless as well. So let's try for something else for the time being.
Revision: Crystal Ammunition Fabricator

The CAF is an impressive component to be fitted to all our cannons, in the following priority from most to least important: AS-HAC-1, AS-HA1, AS-R1, AS-HC1-E.

The component is surprisingly simple. In the small crystal container lies three circuits stolen based off of the Crystal Fabricator circuits from the Crystalworks Mk. 2. The Crystalworks is a large building, yet despite this it doesn't need an extreme amount of apprentices to fuel countless crystal fabricator circuits each one produces countless amounts of crystal components.
The Mk. 1 Crystalworks' circuits would still be fine for the CAF, but the Mk. 2 Fabricator circuits make it even easier. Bullets and shells are already designs perfect for manufacturing from crystal - they're small and simple, meaning we can have very tiny fabricator circuits making them. The Mk. 2 Fabricator circuits' ability to more easily produce more complex designs makes this even easier.

The CAF is designed to be able to be fit onto any cannon (in the prioritized order listed in the beginning of this revision), though they of course can't be hot-swapped in the field; that'd be silly.
Once fit onto a cannon, the CAF is linked to the circuits of that cannon handling the Blastball used for firing the projectile. Once the projectile is fired, the firing circuits then trigger the CAF, which will fabricate the appropriate ammunition inside the firing chamber, ready to be fired. This is where the fact that we have three individual fabricator circuits comes in - a single circuit can fabricate a projectile quickly, but needs to "cool down" in layman's terms for a bit. So we have three and alternate between them.

The firing speeds should be greatly improved. While of course a mage can't simply concentrate to fire a literal unending stream of shells, the rate of fire of affected weaponry should be drastically improved to speeds never thought possible before.

The CAF is powered either by a mage or external wiring input (either from the cannon or another source). Considering the standing efficiency of the Crystalworks, power consumption shouldn't be high and for example, an AA Magegem should be able to power both a SPSF-C and a single shell/bullet fabrication. But generally the CAF is designed first and foremost to be made use of by wizards; mundane users can always insert shells manually if we can't get the Fabricators to be powered by existing power supplies.

The effects may seem huge, and they are, but ultimately the CAF is simply programming a simple design into crystal fabricators from the Crystalworks then putting those fabricators into a box.


TL;DR: Take Crystal Fabricator circuits from Crystalworks Mk. 2, put three in a box, attach box to cannon, set circuits to make ammunition in the firing chamber. Enjoy new semi-automatic weaponry.

Quote
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator: Chiefwaffles
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3712 on: July 09, 2017, 12:03:36 am »

I think you missed the point CW. The mundane means we can can field all of our artillery. It requires no wizards to operate at all. It may have a much slower rate of fire, but it will never be locked by lack of mages.

This may be an unpopular idea, but I think we ought to use our last revision on the mundane as well. Either reduce the costs, or increase the rate of fire. If we can make the mundane effectively the same thing as the regular HA1, we would tripple the number of our cannons, and have all of our wizards avaliable for what ever else we need them for.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3713 on: July 09, 2017, 12:17:35 am »

If we wanted to improve the HA1-b, then Better Aethergems would definitely be the way to go. Just give it the same treatment Improved Magegems got, but improve Charge Rate instead of Capacity.

And this is what Evicted said on Discord regarding the HA1-b:
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
The Mundane is a variant of the HA1 that has spots for aethergem insertion and PSF-C generators in the firing chamber.  It is VeryExpensive.  Both the HA1 and the HA1-b perform separate roles.
So if I'm interpreting this correctly, then we have a handful (Very Expensive) of HA1s that fire at a rate of 1 round/10 minutes, but require zero wizards to do so.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3714 on: July 09, 2017, 12:37:26 am »

Crystal Ammunition Fabricator is obviously useless. We already are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate. This is increasing the rate of fire when we already have ammunition shortages. Not ot mention that crystals are useless as ammunition. Our metal shells are being deflected by wind. Wind deflection is primarily based around density. A tonne of feathers is effectively lighter than a tonne of bricks because the feathers can never exert as much force or carry as much much inertia. Crystal ammunition will be easier to blow away, Such a revision would, in the current situation, be a downgrade.

I recommend the recharging pack. It updates all of our magem-based technology into the new field.

Forced Force Flourishes
We tweak our blast-balls(primarily) and fireballs(If we are able, they ought to be similar enough) to be manually detonated. This allows them to be set off in the midst of enemy formations and shoot air targets with no need to strike accurately. This should give our apprentices a more accurate option with a larger coverage and presumably immunity to wind(as wind has never been noted to influence them at all) against targets at closer ranges.


I still feel that we ought make some attempt to recover our design action with the charger, but the F.F.F.s would be a good ward against some sort of artillery resistance that could nullify our smaller calibres.

Quote
2 Aethergem Fitting: Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 Aethergem Shells:
0 Academy Aethergems:
0 Temporary Wizards:
0 Weightite works:
0 Gemerators:
1 Magegem Capacity Upgrade: Andres
1 Aethergem recharging pack: RAM
1 Better Aethergems: Chiefwaffles
1 Duststorm Equalizer: FallacyofUrist
0 Growing Crystal:
0 U.N.C.L.:
0 S.A.F.E.:
1 Crystal Ammunition Fabricator: Chiefwaffles
0 Forced Force Flourishes:

0 Save the credit:

Orders:
2 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3715 on: July 09, 2017, 12:51:14 am »

Crystal Ammunition Fabricator is obviously useless. We already are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate. This is increasing the rate of fire when we already have ammunition shortages. Not ot mention that crystals are useless as ammunition. Our metal shells are being deflected by wind. Wind deflection is primarily based around density. A tonne of feathers is effectively lighter than a tonne of bricks because the feathers can never exert as much force or carry as much much inertia. Crystal ammunition will be easier to blow away, Such a revision would, in the current situation, be a downgrade.
Nope.


1.) Literally nowhere has it been said that we "are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate." Literally nowhere.

2.) "Ammunition shortages" is no longer a problem. This is the most recent time it was mentioned:
Combat for 941
...
The derailed trains hurts Arstotzka here pretty badly - the trains are unarmed and full of valuable artillery shells (although they have the sense not to transport the gems charged, meaning no messy explosion).  Without frequent supply drops, the HA1's must annoyingly fall silent every so often.  This is a god-send for Moskurg soldiers who've taken to ducking in their trenches every time they hear a noise.
Note the time. And A.) Ammunition shortages at this time (which was two combat phases ago) were only if the trains derailed. Which was only a problem because Al-Mutriqa was assigned to this theatre. B.) This was before we got Expensive Restless trains, which solve this problem and then some.

3.) The difference in weight between Crystal and Steel isn't significant. Crystal has only ever been a bit lighter than steel. Note this quote.
Design: Combat Armor [2+2, 3+6, 4+2]
...
Essentially the same design, our armor is now made entirely out of crystal rather than steel.  This results in a modest reduction in weight ...
"Modest". The weight difference between complete plate armor made out of steel and complete plate armor made out of Crystal is modest. The weight difference between steel and crystal is only notable at much larger sizes, like the Crystalclad and maybe the Protector/Restless.
Crystal shouldn't have any notable difference in effectiveness against their anti-shell wind magic, and would not be notably easier to blow away.



EDIT: And people back then were voting for the first revision. Don't bring their votes back now. I fixed the votes, though I left your vote for obvious reasons.
Quote
0 - Aethergem Fitting:
0 - Aethergem Shells:
0 - Academy Aethergems:
0 - Temporary Wizards:
0 - Weightite works:
0 - Gemerators:
0 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade:
1 - Aethergem recharging pack: RAM
0 - Better Aethergems:
0 - Duststorm Equalizer:
0 - Growing Crystal:
0 - U.N.C.L.:
0 - S.A.F.E.:
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator: Chiefwaffles
0 - Forced Force Flourishes:

0 - Save the credit:

Orders:
2 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon
Also please stop removing the dashes.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 12:56:27 am by Chiefwaffles »
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3716 on: July 09, 2017, 01:33:29 am »

Crystal Ammunition Fabricator is obviously useless. We already are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate. This is increasing the rate of fire when we already have ammunition shortages. Not ot mention that crystals are useless as ammunition. Our metal shells are being deflected by wind. Wind deflection is primarily based around density. A tonne of feathers is effectively lighter than a tonne of bricks because the feathers can never exert as much force or carry as much much inertia. Crystal ammunition will be easier to blow away, Such a revision would, in the current situation, be a downgrade.
Nope.
Nope?
1.) Literally nowhere has it been said that we "are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate." Literally nowhere.
Except:
Though Arstotzka now has more HA1's, they can't field them to their full potential as they need three mages to a cannon and they have just as many cannons as mages.  Nearly every available wizard is pulled to HA1 firing duty
No amount of calling me a liar will make me a liar. You, on the other hand, are lying. It is very obvious because you have been making proposals to increase our magic supply. You are well aware that we have a shortage of magic and are very obviously just calling me a liar for your own games, and it has long passed to point of being acceptable behaviour.
2.) "Ammunition shortages" is no longer a problem. This is the most recent time it was mentioned:
I was using ammunition as another term for magic. /It is a constraint on how much we can fire. Obviously a thing that summons bullet would be a boon if we were low on bullet supplies. IOf you were actually trying to argue the point then you should have gone with that. You obviously aren't even trying to win an argument, you are just trying to denounce my opinion at every opportunity and it is no longer possible to consider such extreme displays as anything other than intentional malice!

3.) The difference in weight between Crystal and Steel isn't significant. Crystal has only ever been a bit lighter than steel. Note this quote.
our armor is now made entirely out of crystal rather than steel.  This results in a modest reduction in weight
"Modest". The weight difference between complete plate armor made out of steel and complete plate armor made out of Crystal is modest. The weight difference between steel and crystal is only notable at much larger sizes, like the Crystalclad and maybe the Protector/Restless.
Crystal shouldn't have any notable difference in effectiveness against their anti-shell wind magic, and would not be notably easier to blow away.
Wow....
Quote from: wiktionary: modest
2. Small, moderate in size.

    He earns a modest amount of money.
    Her latest novel was a modest success.
Quote from: witionary: moderate
1. Not excessive; acting in moderation

    moderate language
    a moderate Calvinist
    travelling at a moderate speed

    Jonathan Swift

        A number of moderate members managed […] to obtain a majority in a thin house.

2. Mediocre
3. Average priced; standard-deal
You are saying that it will make no difference. You are wrong. I would ascribe this to just not understanding the words that you are using, but I must assume, at this point, that it is malice. Please stop blatantly lying to everyone for your own self-aggrandisement. It is not subtle anymore, everyone can see that you are lying. More specifically:
It is on par with a lance made of steel, but substantially lighter.
On the scale of a lance it is "substantially" lighter. "Substantial" means that it is important enough to take note of...

Not that that actually is a thing at all. I mean, there is no "scale" factor here. It is relative weights for the same sizes that count. A crystalclad that is 20% heavier will displace 20% more water. A bullet with the same ratio will be blown 20% further off course, more or less. Flight-physics are more complex than simple displacement, but the scale is still basically meaningless. So your pointless attack at my integrity wouldn't even be justified if it were based on truth instead of outright lies.


EDIT: And people back then were voting for the first revision. Don't bring their votes back now. I fixed the votes, though I left your vote for obvious reasons.
This, on the other hand, is fair. I didn't consider that the situations was sufficiently changed that people would alter their votes, and assumed that everyone would have ample opportunity to fdo so if they were so inclined. I admit that I was wrong. Still, it could have been worse, I could have just deleted everyone else's proposals...
Also please stop removing the dashes.
Heh, funny, there is some leniency in how to interpret that, but I expect that most everyone will agree that the implications is that I am making a habit of such. Most assuredly not the case the first time that you said it and now? Well, I prefer it the other way, and you have taken far worse liberties so I will take my own. I find it easier to edit the votes and add new ones this way so I will do as I see fit. Do you perhaps have some sort of authority in this matter? I mean, you added them to other people's proposals before I removed them, you had no more right to do that...


Quote
0 Aethergem Shells:
0 Academy Aethergems:
0 Temporary Wizards:
0 Weightite works:
0 Gemerators:
0 Magegem Capacity Upgrade:
1 Aethergem recharging pack: RAM
0 Aethergem Fitting:
0 Better Aethergems:
0 Duststorm Equalizer:
0 Growing Crystal:
0 U.N.C.L.:
0 S.A.F.E.:
1 Crystal Ammunition Fabricator: Chiefwaffles
0 Forced Force Flourishes:

0 Save the credit:

Orders:
2 Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

Chiefwaffles

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3717 on: July 09, 2017, 01:57:46 am »

Nope?
And you'd be incorrect.

1.) Literally nowhere has it been said that we "are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate." Literally nowhere.
Except:
Though Arstotzka now has more HA1's, they can't field them to their full potential as they need three mages to a cannon and they have just as many cannons as mages.  Nearly every available wizard is pulled to HA1 firing duty
No amount of calling me a liar will make me a liar. You, on the other hand, are lying. It is very obvious because you have been making proposals to increase our magic supply. You are well aware that we have a shortage of magic and are very obviously just calling me a liar for your own games, and it has long passed to point of being acceptable behaviour.
Quite literally never called you a liar in the referred post, pal. Stop manufacturing drama, please.

But anywhoo, let me give you a walkthrough over our problem with the HA1 and how magic has been established to work in Wands Race.
Spells are a matter of training and concentration time. We don't have mana here. The limitations of a spell are that the mage must be trained in it beforehand, must have the general skill to execute the spell, must be in a situation where the spell is useful, and have time to prepare the spell.
"Mana" does in a way exist. But for our ____Gems and circuitry only. Humans aren't restricted by any form of magical energy.

Now the HA1 problem. The AS-HA1 uses three PSF-C spells to create the necessary pressure for the shell. The PSF-C is actually a Cheap spell. This does not mean that the spell requires a low amount of energy for its circuitry to cast. It means that an Apprentice can be trained in the spell. That's it.
A problem is that magic here isn't flexible like it is in some other fiction. You have a spell, and you can use that spell only. Our apprentices don't cast "a fireball about this big" or "a PSF but bigger". They cast "PSF", "SPSF", or nothing.
So we need three apprentices to cast the three PSF-Cs required for a HA1 to operate. Because we know how to train an apprentice to cast a PSF-C spell. And an apprentice can't make up variations like "x3 PSF-C" in the field.

And this is why you're wrong. This is not a problem of "magical energy". This is a problem of logistics. Of training. We are limited by manpower in HA1s and nothing else. We need 3x Apprentices to be able to operate a HA1. Even a Master Wizard couldn't do it because they don't have a spell for 3x PSF-Cs at once.

2.) "Ammunition shortages" is no longer a problem. This is the most recent time it was mentioned:
I was using ammunition as another term for magic. /It is a constraint on how much we can fire. Obviously a thing that summons bullet would be a boon if we were low on bullet supplies. IOf you were actually trying to argue the point then you should have gone with that. You obviously aren't even trying to win an argument, you are just trying to denounce my opinion at every opportunity and it is no longer possible to consider such extreme displays as anything other than intentional malice!

Have you realized how these little "fights" occur, buddy, pal, RAM? Because you're always the one starting it. You're always the one calling my designs, and I quote, "obviously useless." That's you. I'm merely pointing out why your criticisms of my designs are wrong.
I'm annoyed because there's a pattern here. If I see that little "RAM" in the "last post" section of the thread from the FG&RP board, I instinctively think "Oh, RAM's manufacturing more 'problems' in my design for some nebulous reason."

And no, you weren't "using ammunition as another term for magic." Because you literally already brought that up when you said, and I again quote, "are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate." That and "ammunition" usually means ammunition, not magic. Even if you weren't retroactively changing your meaning to avoid being wrong, it's still on you to word your posts in ways so people can understand them.
It's okay to admit you're wrong, RAM. 

3.) The difference in weight between Crystal and Steel isn't significant. Crystal has only ever been a bit lighter than steel. Note this quote.
our armor is now made entirely out of crystal rather than steel.  This results in a modest reduction in weight
"Modest". The weight difference between complete plate armor made out of steel and complete plate armor made out of Crystal is modest. The weight difference between steel and crystal is only notable at much larger sizes, like the Crystalclad and maybe the Protector/Restless.
Crystal shouldn't have any notable difference in effectiveness against their anti-shell wind magic, and would not be notably easier to blow away.


Wow....
Quote from: wiktionary: modest
2. Small, moderate in size.

    He earns a modest amount of money.
    Her latest novel was a modest success.
Quote from: witionary: moderate
1. Not excessive; acting in moderation

    moderate language
    a moderate Calvinist
    travelling at a moderate speed

    Jonathan Swift

        A number of moderate members managed […] to obtain a majority in a thin house.

2. Mediocre
3. Average priced; standard-deal
Thank you for proving my point.

You are saying that it will make no difference. You are wrong. I would ascribe this to just not understanding the words that you are using, but I must assume, at this point, that it is malice. Please stop blatantly lying to everyone for your own self-aggrandisement. It is not subtle anymore, everyone can see that you are lying.
Another RAM Insult! I should be collecting these!
Buddy, if you can't prove me wrong then just give up and realize that you're wrong. It's okay to be wrong! We're all wrong at many points in our lives. It's a part of being human, and it's okay to admit it.
But instead you resort to character attacks. Please stop it.

More specifically:
It is on par with a lance made of steel, but substantially lighter.
On the scale of a lance it is "substantially" lighter. "Substantial" means that it is important enough to take note of...

Not that that actually is a thing at all. I mean, there is no "scale" factor here. It is relative weights for the same sizes that count. A crystalclad that is 20% heavier will displace 20% more water. A bullet with the same ratio will be blown 20% further off course, more or less. Flight-physics are more complex than simple displacement, but the scale is still basically meaningless. So your pointless attack at my integrity wouldn't even be justified if it were based on truth instead of outright lies.
Goddamn RAM. You do know that you can't just magically make people dislike me by increasing the density of the word "lie" in your post, right?

And note that this is Iituem. Iituem. When we first made the Magic Lance.
Since then Evicted has made it very clear that Crystal is only a bit lighter than Steel. Like in that quote, from Evicted (the guy who just so happens to be the one running the game right now and has been for months), where he said that plate armor made out of Crystal only has a modest weight reduction to steel armor.

And generally Evicted's (the guy who's running the game, if ya didn't know) fairly recent words should be taking priority over Iituem's words. Because, like I said, Evicted happens to be the one running the game.


Logged
Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

helmacon

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3718 on: July 09, 2017, 02:42:21 am »

So, barring any dramatic breakthrough effect with our revision, I think we are likely to lose the desert. We won on a coin flip last time, so if they have developed anything useful there at all (which seeing as it's their home territory, they almost definitely have) we will likely be pushed back.

Therefore, I propose an order for damage control

Operation Gathering Storm
We will purposely fall back a territory in the desert, managing a controlled retreat. During this time we will build extensive fortifications and supply lines in the area of the desert we still control. This is not a retreat, but a strategic withdraw. We will engage the enemy in limited operations to ensure that they advance no further than we intend. We will use the time bought from this operation to lay rails for the restless. Map the terrain, and figure likely routes of attack and solid defensive positions. We will erect semi permanent fortifications structures, instead of the typical hastily dug trench and a few sad huts.

In short, we will intentionally cede ground this year in order to ensure we advance next year.
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Science is Meta gaming IRL. Humans are cheating fucks.

RAM

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Re: Wands Race - [Arstotzka]
« Reply #3719 on: July 09, 2017, 03:07:07 am »

If people want me to stop these rants then all they have to do is acknowledge that Chiefwaffles is attacking me in an unjust fashion and with inaccurate statements.
Have you realized how these little "fights" occur, buddy, pal, RAM? Because you're always the one starting it. You're always the one calling my designs, and I quote, "obviously useless." That's you. I'm merely pointing out why your criticisms of my designs are wrong.
You are not "merely" pointing out your beliefs. You are extremely heavily insinuating, when not outright stating, that I am wrong as a consistent pattern, rather than just on individual instances. There is a very important difference. One is finding flaw in my arguments, the other is either a malicious or unwitting effort to reduce someone's reputation. It is also known as slander. It has very real and very important consequences and has killed a great many people. I am right to demand that you recant your lies about me. It would be evil of me to just ignore this sort of treatment. I like to think that I would do the same if you were mistreating someone else in the same way.

I am not wrong, as evidenced by your lack of evidence and reasoning. You state that I am wrong, you state that I make things up or don't understand. You do not provide arguments sufficient to demonstrate any of these things. You just keep calling me deficient without ever elaborating. SOMEBODY needs to denounce your slanderous inclinations and I am willing to do it. Stop harming people.

You are, also, very clearly slandering me.
Quote
You're always the one calling my designs, and I quote, "obviously useless." That's you.
Now, sure, you could argue that it was not a direct quote, except you can't. You were trying to inflate the importance of your statement by implying that it was very strict and concrete. You put the statement in quotations marks, but that could just be emphasis. But you very clearly stated "I quote". You emphasised twice that it was a quote, that it was exact words. You state twice that I am the subject. You go out of your way to make it extremely clear that I am the one to blame here. That I am a problem. You further state that I "always" do this. There is no sane way to interpret that without it being a reference to multiple events.

So, in short, you say that I am constantly calling your designs, and I quote, "obviously useless". Now guess what happens when you search the thread for the terms "obviously" and "useless"... I only use that term when it is true, and incontrovertibly so.

Let's not bother with the sarcastic terms of endearment...

You blame all this on me. And you finally have a quote of me calling one of your designs obviously useless, so you are playing it for all that it is worth. but that is exactly what your design is. You make up some ridiculous story of apprentices possessing limitless magic. You are wrong, this is why: Our apprentices are repeatedly quoted as wanting to use actual magic but instead they are glorified generators. We have a single device, the cannon. It has a single magical component, an explosion spell. It requires three mages, why? Because they can only use one spell at a time? No, there is only one spell to use. Or is the spell so complex that it requires three people to understand it? Since when did we learn how to combine the efforts of multiple mages to achieve a more complex spell than would otherwise be possible? And then you try to defend yourself from rebuttal but pointing out yourself that magems prove that magic is a limited resource, both in their limited ability to do what mages do and the limited charge that they use to do it with. You try to say that it doesn't, with no explanation, and that is supposed to be convincing somehow? No, it is a power shortage.

Problem: We do not have enough power.
Solution: Add more magical components.
Result: detrimental.
Problem: Our bullets are blown off course.
Solution: Make our bullets lighter.
Result: detrimental.
I am VERY cautious with the term "obviously useless". I use it only in extreme cases. This is one such case.

Ugh, and you accuse me of retroconning my use of "ammunition"? Because I used repetition? Because "ammunition" means "bullet"? No, ammunition can refer to flamethrower-fuel, it can refer to whole shells, charges and all. It refers to a lot of things. In this case we are shooting bullets(literally just the projectile, the slang use of "bullet" to include the components that are expended and discarded when fired and do not travel to the target is incorrect according to the technical term, though obviously the slang meaning has legitimacy in general useage) using magic. Descrete bullets being launched with discrete spells using discrete quantities of magic. Ammunition is perfectly acceptable and the statement was largely figurative anyway. But go ahead an accuse me of lying about what I meant. You only dig your hole deeper.

How this game works well:
 People make proposals.
 People discuss proposals, some of which is criticism, some of which is "negative" and directed towards perceived flaws.
 People refute this criticism or accept it and improve the design or accept it and argue that their design is good enough despite the flaws.

What Chiefwaffles does:
 Makes a proposal.
 Sees me very explicitly point out its flaws.
 Completely denies all of them without justification and accuses me of being biased.

They COULD just ignore my post. Accept that someone is saying bad things about their work and not bother with it.
they COULD fix their designs.
They COULD make a reasoned argument as to how those flaws are false or irrelevant.
They COULD provide a mix of these things. Ignore what they want to, fix some things, and argue against others.
INSTEAD they argue against me, as a person, and ignore my ideas in the effort to refute my standing in the community to the point at which I am no longer regarded as credible.
They refute EVERY flaw that I cite while providing actual arguments only to a few select things which they think will make me look bad, but can';t even provide valid reasons in most of those cases.
They are systematically trying to destroy my reputation here because they can't or won't win an argument with reasons. I was willing to overlook this, and persist on pointing out what was wrong with their arguments instead of them as a person, but it is clear that this has gone beyond harmless aggressiveness and is a concerted(Though possibly ignorant, but at this point that looks nearly impossible.) effort to harm me.

I can admit when I am wrong. I just did. I was wrong to leave people' votes in the vote box for the new round of voting. Chiefwaffles still uses this nonsense:
Quote
Buddy, if you can't prove me wrong then just give up and realize that you're wrong. It's okay to be wrong! We're all wrong at many points in our lives. It's a part of being human, and it's okay to admit it.
It is no longer plausible to accept this as a product of innocence. Chiefwaffles is openly attacking me. If people want me to stop these rants then all they have to do is acknowledge that Chiefwaffles is attacking me in an unjust fashion and with inaccurate statements.
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