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Author Topic: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank  (Read 5595 times)

Bassial

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Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« on: March 22, 2017, 12:22:13 am »

I am just getting back into this after a prolonged (3+ years) absence, and would like to construct a fortress dedicated to dwarven !!SCIENCE!!, and wish to gather ideas from everyone as to what projects could/should be explored, either by myself or others. I will list all ideas either I have, or created by you, in this post, as well add linking to relevant research on that topic, to make a new repository for dwarven !!SCIENCE!! If you know of any research you feel ought to be included, but is not, feel free to bring that to the thread's attention.


**Author's note**
  • Please be aware that I am still just getting my fort underway, and have never performed too much !!SCIENCE!!, if any, in the past. Research performed by myself may take some time to begin, as a mostly casual-but-technical player.
  • The below is still under construction.
Former Dwarven Knowledge Repositories
Agricultural Science
Proposed
  • Domestication: Impact of Animal Training on Civilization & Fortress Knowledge – proposed by Bassial
  • Animal (Dwarven?) Husbandry: Impact of Parents' Attributes & Preferences on Children – proposed by Bassial
  • Vermin Theft Rate: Controlled for material/item type/food type/container/biome – proposed by mixtrak
Completed Civil Engineering
Proposed Completed
Computer Science
Proposed

Completed

Fluid Dynamics
Proposed

Completed Logistical Science
Proposed Completed

Mechanical Engineering
Proposed

Completed

Medical Science
Proposed

Completed

Military Science
Proposed
  • A study that would result in the "crossbow accuracy" theorem, an equation which would give you the likelihood of a bolt striking its target, given a variety of factors, including (for the shooter) Marksdwarf, Archery, Fighter, Observer, Ambusher, and (for the bolt recipient) Dodger, Observer, Armor User, and Shield User, as well as the use of fortifications, and the given X, Y, and Z difference – proposed by Bassial
Completed Physical Science
Proposed
  • Flight: Impact of mass, launch pad size, and relative positioning on said launch pad on flight – proposed by Ironfang
  • On Contaminants – proposed by peridot
    • Does mist clean a dwarf, or only water?
    • Contaminants on walls: Does the game keep track of what "side" the contaminant is on? Can it be cleaned from the "other" side?
    • What does magma remove contaminants from?
    • Effects of obsidian casting on contaminants (i.e. floors, walls, items)
    • What can dwarves be contaminated from? I.e. floors, walls, items, water
    • What qualifies as exposure?
      • Drinking contaminated liquid?
      • Walking on contaminated surface (barefoot vs. covered)?
      • Handling contaminated items?
      • Cleaning contaminated areas?
      • Mining or deconstructing a contaminated wall? – suggested by Lav
           
    • Will a construction using a contaminated material be contaminated itself? E.g. contaminated boulder used to construct a wall – suggested by Bassial
    • Effects of Disease Resistance on contamination – suggested by Bassial
Completed Social Science
Proposed

Completed The Dark Arts
Proposed
  • Experimentation with conjoined Necromancy and Werebeast–ism: Werebeast loses appendage, then animated by Necromancer, then appendage regenerates – proposed by Nikita
Completed


To-do
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 03:13:28 am by Bassial »
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2017, 12:36:07 am »

I had an awesome and completely impractical idea, where you split the entire above-ground map into small "rooms". You can open connections between rooms, fill rooms with magma or water, connect rooms to cage trap hallways/killing chambers, all at your command. This way you can easily dispose of gobbo sieges, while still letting civilian dwarves outside. For bonus points you can do the same with the caverns.
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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2017, 03:43:19 am »

ptw
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peridot

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2017, 08:03:31 am »

I think there's still some troubling confusion about contaminant removal. Things there seems to be ambiguity about:

  • Does mist clean dwarves or is it only water? (I think only water but the contrary opinion floats around a lot)
  • What is the effect of contaminants on walls? Does the game know which side of a wall contaminants are on? Can a wall be cleaned from the "other side"?
  • What does magma remove contaminants from? (My experiments suggest it removes them from floors it covers but not walls it touches)
  • How does obsidian casting affect contaminants? (on the floor, on items cast in obsidian, on walls next to fresh obsidian)
  • What can dwarves pick up contaminants from? Floors (yes?), walls (no?), water (yes), items (?)
  • What qualifies as "exposure" to a dangerous contaminant? Drinking contaminated liquid? Walking on contaminated surfaces (barefoot or shod)? Handling contaminated items? Cleaning contaminated areas?

Much contaminant research can be carried out with harmless but plentiful contaminants like blood; dangerous contaminants are only available from megabeasts, as far as I know (though wouldn't it be cool if those barrels of venom could be spilled?) and incautious experimentation could lead to FUN. For example, deadly blood that makes dwarves bleed their own deadly blood can spread all over the fortress rapidly, often helped by wandering cats with rotting limbs.

This research is aimed at developing fortresses that can be effectively contaminant-proofed. I already put dwarven bathtubs on every entrance and at hospital entrances, engraved to encourage cleaning by dwarves. I tried building one that could be cleaned by cycling magma through it and it seemed like the floor was seared clean but not the walls.

Ultimately if you're serious about preventing contaminant plagues you could (should!) build a fortress that can be cleansed by flooding with magma (parts at a time, after evacuation). Almost everything non-consumable can be made magma-safe (green glass is great, obsidian can be generated at need) with the possible exception of beds, though nether-cap beds might survive. I'm sure dwarves love sleeping in beds at a constant zero celsius. Food and seed stockpiles would be a problem, though backup supplies could be locked away to prevent contamination and not need thermal cleansing.
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Lav

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2017, 08:55:44 am »

  • What can dwarves pick up contaminants from? Floors (yes?), walls (no?), water (yes), items (?)
Addendum: can dwarves pick contaminants from a wall if they mine or deconstruct it?
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Seems to be the way with things on this forum; if an invention doesn't involve death by magma then you know someone's going to go out of their way to make sure it does involve death by magma... then it gets acknowledged as being a great invention.

Ironfang

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2017, 10:35:39 am »

Simple proposal,
I have questions about dwarven flight. I suggest using various bridges to train Uristnauts. See how bridge dimensions and mass of the Uristnaut affects flight.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2017, 10:45:43 am »

items
Yes, as lethal egg roasts demonstrated in a community fortress I read.
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Bassial

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2017, 01:57:23 pm »

Vermin theft rates, controlling for material/container type/food type/biome
I take it that you mean how often vermin will steal in general, as well as the frequency at which they steal a particular item, correct?
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Nikita

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2017, 02:39:51 pm »

Where does necromancer, werebeast and vampire science fit in this?

I'm trying to replicate the famous self-cloning werezombie experiment (you chop off pieces of a werebeast, necromancer reanimates them, they regenerate into whole werebeasts), but so far I've not proven badass enough to capture a necromancer AND a werebeast in the same fort.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 02:46:49 pm by Nikita »
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2017, 07:54:33 pm »

I can tell you right now that capturing and training animals will, after a looooot of animals, get your civ very close to domestication but will never get you there. Toady's stated that until he programs in being able to alter what a civ has on the embark screen, there is no way to fully domesticate a species, because doing so would add them to the embark screen for future fortresses in that world.
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Bassial

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2017, 09:14:38 pm »

I can tell you right now that capturing and training animals will, after a looooot of animals, get your civ very close to domestication but will never get you there. Toady's stated that until he programs in being able to alter what a civ has on the embark screen, there is no way to fully domesticate a species, because doing so would add them to the embark screen for future fortresses in that world.
I had assumed as much, but I want to understand it on a personal level none-the-less, including number of takings needed to get from one level to the next, and so on.


Where does necromancer, werebeast and vampire science fit in this?


I'm trying to replicate the famous self-cloning werezombie experiment (you chop off pieces of a werebeast, necromancer reanimates them, they regenerate into whole werebeasts), but so far I've not proven badass enough to capture a necromancer AND a werebeast in the same fort.
It fits wherever you would like it to fit. I just came up with these categories based on the other research I will be adding, nothing is ever truly static. One method you can consider for getting yourself both is, once you have one of them, to go into adventure mode, mild that adventurer into the type of person necessary, and leave them while they are at your fortress and resume control. I did this by accident once and said adventurer joined my fortress, as a full member.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 09:29:19 pm by Bassial »
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peridot

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2017, 10:13:11 am »

I can tell you right now that capturing and training animals will, after a looooot of animals, get your civ very close to domestication but will never get you there. Toady's stated that until he programs in being able to alter what a civ has on the embark screen, there is no way to fully domesticate a species, because doing so would add them to the embark screen for future fortresses in that world.

It doesn't actually need to be all that many distinct animals - when I start setting out trap lines in the caverns, I usually pick up one or two weird beasts. At no risk (beyond autopauses) you can just tell your dwarves to train them right in their cages. They never end up very well trained, since only completely wild animals can be trained in a cage, but it happens automatically, so after a few years of keeping these caged animals around your civilization eventually gains familiarity with the animals. If you do start getting lots of animals (crundles) you can tame and then butcher them, rather rapidly becoming familiar with their training. Ironically, the animals I actually domesticate are the ones my civ doesn't necessarily get familiar with: I repeatedly train the wild breeding stock until young are born, but the young only need to be trained once to become completely tame, and *their* young don't need to be trained at all. So unless I keep the wild-born original animals around, I don't actually need to do that much training.

If ever civilization-level domestication becomes possible, the criteria need to be carefully thought out. Simply having lots of experience training animals does not get your fortress any tame animals, and you don't need to be any good at training a kind of animal to get a tame one - even aside from buying animals from traders, all you need to do is get the mother trained at birth, and train the young, and you have a tame animal. I'd like to see the criterion be "your fortress has at least n tame male animals and m tame female animals", and then later forts could start buying them from caravans.

Of course, caravan animals are going to be generated afresh, so giving them plausible ages (matters for cave dragons) may be tricky. Plus if your fortress starts selling tame giant war tigers soon every civilization will buy them and they'll start appearing as invaders/caravan guards/pulling wagons/pets of visitors. (Or rather, if they don't, it will seem like a weird lack in game mechanics.)
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Insert_Gnome_Here

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2017, 12:33:07 pm »


It fits wherever you would like it to fit. I just came up with these categories based on the other research I will be adding, nothing is ever truly static. One method you can consider for getting yourself both is, once you have one of them, to go into adventure mode, mild that adventurer into the type of person necessary, and leave them while they are at your fortress and resume control. I did this by accident once and said adventurer joined my fortress, as a full member.

You can always get necromancers by stealing a slab as an adventurer and leaving it in your fort's library. Just be careful about who reads it, or else everyone will be necros. Might be interesting to try, actually.
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Bassial

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2017, 03:02:15 am »


It fits wherever you would like it to fit. I just came up with these categories based on the other research I will be adding, nothing is ever truly static. One method you can consider for getting yourself both is, once you have one of them, to go into adventure mode, mild that adventurer into the type of person necessary, and leave them while they are at your fortress and resume control. I did this by accident once and said adventurer joined my fortress, as a full member.

You can always get necromancers by stealing a slab as an adventurer and leaving it in your fort's library. Just be careful about who reads it, or else everyone will be necros. Might be interesting to try, actually.
This does seem like a a good way to make it happen, actually, though you would have to be careful.
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Bassial

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Re: Dwarven !!SCIENCE!! Think Tank
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2017, 12:30:05 am »

I'm being a little picky in finding a location for my fortress..and by a little I mean very. A volcano embark with some sort of river, sand, clay, shallow & deep metal(s) with flux, in a savage region capable of spawning either giant tigers or giant grizzly bears, with all possible neighbors (e.g. Elves, Goblins, Humans, and a Tower). Significantly increased (semi-)megabeasts & titans. I have a site I think I will go with that is sans giant tigers/grizzlies, which is not that bad, that I think I will go with. Are there any tests on either embarking or in fortess constructions itself that people have and would like to see done?
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