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Author Topic: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?  (Read 2884 times)

Gamerguy247365

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I've been experimenting with this using my latest adventurer, (same skill in ranged and throwing) and I've come to find that just tossing bolts at people and creatures is WAY more efficient. Using the same silver bolts with both tests ive nearly died trying to shoot creatures with a crossbow, because it takes so long to reload that after I fire they are quickly on me. Wherein the throwing test I've brought similar targets down well before they reach me with quick consecutive throws. It seems the throwing doesn't hit as hard but is much faster to get ammo flying. Thoughts anyone?
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peasant cretin

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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2017, 05:47:23 pm »

I almost always play a sort of dwarven (dorfin?) archer/ranger using either a bow or crossbow. It's a game of knowing your distance, the tile quality of your environment and a good bit of roleplay.

I manage the delay after firing either by staying over 20 tiles away from my character's target during daylight, or at night my character will make use of visual stealth and play shoot'em up from under 20 tile range.

And in the last run linked above, I began trying to be more economical ammo-wise versus organics by targeting the lungs. Once both receive damage, my character just waits out the ticks until the creature suffocates (this can be done with melee as well).

EDIT: 5/14/17: It's still pretty anecdotal, but damage seems to based on side delivered. If my character holds his bow or hammer in his right hand, there seems to be more likelihood when targeting the upper body that the left side (left lung) will get hit more often. Your character's body mirrors that of the opponent. When switching to the left hand, my character was able to get right side damage. Still archer/thrower/bow is very RNG driven. Actually you can kinda aim due to using facing or "sidedness": http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141724.msg7436341#msg7436341


That all said, most people here will say skip bows and throw stuff at your enemies. Yet, I'll voice the support for playing as archer-ranger tho. There's definitely a way to do it and do it in a way that's interesting.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 06:22:22 pm by peasant cretin »
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Gamerguy247365

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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2017, 08:41:39 pm »

I almost always play a sort of dwarven (dorfin?) archer/ranger using either a bow or crossbow. It's a game of knowing your distance, the tile quality of your environment and a good bit of roleplay.

I manage the delay after firing either by staying over 20 tiles away from my character's target during daylight, or at night my character will make use of visual stealth and play shoot'em up from under 20 tile range.

And in the last run linked above, I began trying to be more economical ammo-wise versus organics by targeting the lungs. Once both receive damage, my character just waits out the ticks until the creature suffocates (this can be done with melee as well).

It's still pretty anecdotal, but damage seems to based on side delivered. If my character holds his bow or hammer in his right hand, there seems to be more likelihood when targeting the upper body that the left side (left lung) will get hit more often. Your character's body mirrors that of the opponent. When switching to the left hand, my character was able to get right side damage. Still archer/thrower/bow is very RNG driven.

That all said, most people here will say skip bows and throw stuff at your enemies. Yet, I'll voice the support for playing as archer-ranger tho. There's definitely a way to do it and do it in a way that's interesting.



How can you precisely aim for the chest to hit the lungs or is it a random hit?
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Nep Nep

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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2017, 08:43:20 pm »

I almost always play a sort of dwarven (dorfin?) archer/ranger using either a bow or crossbow. It's a game of knowing your distance, the tile quality of your environment and a good bit of roleplay.

I manage the delay after firing either by staying over 20 tiles away from my character's target during daylight, or at night my character will make use of visual stealth and play shoot'em up from under 20 tile range.

And in the last run linked above, I began trying to be more economical ammo-wise versus organics by targeting the lungs. Once both receive damage, my character just waits out the ticks until the creature suffocates (this can be done with melee as well).

It's still pretty anecdotal, but damage seems to based on side delivered. If my character holds his bow or hammer in his right hand, there seems to be more likelihood when targeting the upper body that the left side (left lung) will get hit more often. Your character's body mirrors that of the opponent. When switching to the left hand, my character was able to get right side damage. Still archer/thrower/bow is very RNG driven.

That all said, most people here will say skip bows and throw stuff at your enemies. Yet, I'll voice the support for playing as archer-ranger tho. There's definitely a way to do it and do it in a way that's interesting.



How can you precisely aim for the chest to hit the lungs or is it a random hit?

Random hit, though it'd be cool to be able to properly aim with crossbows/bows.
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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2017, 09:04:18 pm »

Random hit, though it'd be cool to be able to properly aim with crossbows/bows.

At least it would be better if shooting an unconscious opponent automatically resulted in headshots.
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Gamerguy247365

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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2017, 10:30:27 pm »

At least it would be better if shooting an unconscious opponent automatically resulted in headshots.
[/quote]

That would be nice, just walk by and finish the job execution style.
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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2017, 10:31:33 pm »

At least it would be better if shooting an unconscious opponent automatically resulted in headshots.

That would be nice, just walk by and finish the job execution style.
[/quote]

I'd carry a crossbow just to do that. It'd also make fortress mode hunters more efficient... Hence why I wish you could say hunt with this melee weapon and this ranged weapon.
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peasant cretin

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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2017, 06:09:29 am »

I almost always play a sort of dwarven (dorfin?) archer/ranger using either a bow or crossbow. It's a game of knowing your distance, the tile quality of your environment and a good bit of roleplay.

I manage the delay after firing either by staying over 20 tiles away from my character's target during daylight, or at night my character will make use of visual stealth and play shoot'em up from under 20 tile range.

And in the last run linked above, I began trying to be more economical ammo-wise versus organics by targeting the lungs. Once both receive damage, my character just waits out the ticks until the creature suffocates (this can be done with melee as well).

It's still pretty anecdotal, but damage seems to based on side delivered. If my character holds his bow or hammer in his right hand, there seems to be more likelihood when targeting the upper body that the left side (left lung) will get hit more often. Your character's body mirrors that of the opponent. When switching to the left hand, my character was able to get right side damage. Still archer/thrower/bow is very RNG driven.

That all said, most people here will say skip bows and throw stuff at your enemies. Yet, I'll voice the support for playing as archer-ranger tho. There's definitely a way to do it and do it in a way that's interesting.



How can you precisely aim for the chest to hit the lungs or is it a random hit?

Random hit, though it'd be cool to be able to properly aim with crossbows/bows.

The closest to aiming is managing handedness of a weapon, as I mentioned. Perhaps inconceivably wishfully even, tho mechanics aside, the handedness thing if indeed a thing is kinda immersion breaking and pretty silly unless you're a "I am not left-handed" sort of guy/gal.

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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2017, 08:46:46 am »

At least it would be better if shooting an unconscious opponent automatically resulted in headshots.

That would be nice, just walk by and finish the job execution style.

I'd carry a crossbow just to do that. It'd also make fortress mode hunters more efficient... Hence why I wish you could say hunt with this melee weapon and this ranged weapon.
[/quote]
It'd definitely be useful for hunters - if they had some AI routine to that, i.e shoot until prey is crippled/unconscious, switch to melee and slit throat and let prey bleed out.

IIRC hunting swords IRL were made for that exact purpose - finishing off wounded game animals.

FakerFangirl

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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2017, 05:29:45 pm »

You can't dodge or block after throwing/firing. You can't shoot while running, and it takes more energy to shoot and sprint away than it does to slash and dodge away repeatedly. Blocking and dodging take very little energy whereas sprinting takes up a ton. Mid-level firing skills make you take several moves' worth of time just to shoot and reload. During this time you will be grabbed and hacked-up. I only play archer as flying intelligent creatures. But even then, by the time I train my skills to anything capable of taking on armed opponents and semi-megabeasts, I am useless without an infinite supply of ammo (from a fortress or crafting mod). If all my skills are the same level, it only makes sense to shoot once from 9+ tiles away while surrounded by companions, or chop off the feet of all my attackers and then sprint away. But even then, bolts do less damage than melee attacks, the bolts that miss can never be recovered (unless they fall a z-level), bowyers do not sell bolts/arrows, bowyer workshops are unusable, and if you're not surrounded by companions then a prone enemy can stand up, run at you, and lop off a few limbs or crush some organs before your adventurer has a chance to reload. Why am I forced to reload at point blank range?? This frustrates me. /rant
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peasant cretin

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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2017, 06:18:02 pm »

You can't dodge or block after throwing/firing. You can't shoot while running, and it takes more energy to shoot and sprint away than it does to slash and dodge away repeatedly. Blocking and dodging take very little energy whereas sprinting takes up a ton. Mid-level firing skills make you take several moves' worth of time just to shoot and reload. During this time you will be grabbed and hacked-up. I only play archer as flying intelligent creatures. But even then, by the time I train my skills to anything capable of taking on armed opponents and semi-megabeasts, I am useless without an infinite supply of ammo (from a fortress or crafting mod). If all my skills are the same level, it only makes sense to shoot once from 9+ tiles away while surrounded by companions, or chop off the feet of all my attackers and then sprint away. But even then, bolts do less damage than melee attacks, the bolts that miss can never be recovered (unless they fall a z-level), bowyers do not sell bolts/arrows, bowyer workshops are unusable, and if you're not surrounded by companions then a prone enemy can stand up, run at you, and lop off a few limbs or crush some organs before your adventurer has a chance to reload. Why am I forced to reload at point blank range?? This frustrates me. /rant

In the artificially frozen delay after firing a ranged weapon, a dabbling xbow/bow user can be attacked around 16 times, while a great/legendary xbow/bow user can be attacked around 8 times.

If we think of the lowest tick count attack being 4 and the highest being potentially 10, the tick range for dabbling can be between 64 and 160 ticks. It's half that for a great/legendary at 32/80. Those are the brackets, but the elapsed tick counts are likely in the middle at like 80/100 for dabbling and around 40/60 for great/legendary.

So aside from the very gamey level 8 or expert shield/dodger, where you can get away with shooting from an adjacent tile, and hop around like a flea, your leeway when shooting is then based on how fast the opponent can close distance and reach you.

I forget if it was Putnam or Bumber who once wrote that a dwarf at 1.000 walking speed crosses a tile at a cost of 9-10 ticks. So a dwarf at top speed, which is say 3, can sprint 1 tile at a cost of 3 ticks.

When you think of it like that, you gauge your time by firing the first shot when your target's just at around the 20 tile mark. Count the tiles they've crossed and then you can decide if you can fire another.

Still the best choice is to keep the target at 22-25 tiles away from you and just volley until they're injured/dead, as at any distance over 20 tiles involves NPCs being oblivious. If you can manage your visual stealth, you can be closer.

FakerFangirl

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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2017, 03:47:30 pm »

Remember when training your ranged that the ammo has to fall a z-level or it'll mulch.
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johiah

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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2017, 01:59:08 pm »

I always carry bolts around for throwing whenever someone manages to escape me and get too far away. Usually throwing from behind hits their legs or spine and they have to crawl so I can catch up and explode their face with my fist.
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Re: Is it any better to be a ranger than it is to just throw bolts?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2017, 02:30:46 pm »

Xbow was the first weapon I mastered this playthrough, but I don't carry bolts around because the weight isn't worth it. My quiver is too full of multipurpose tools and weapons that can be thrown at need, I don't need 25+ pounds of single shot expendables that won't even get me drunk. If I run across bolts laying around when they would be useful, I can make good use of the opportunity, then toss them aside when they're no longer useful.


EDIT: Or you could do that:
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 12:26:21 am by Uzu Bash »
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