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Author Topic: Adoption  (Read 2935 times)

Codyo

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Adoption
« on: April 07, 2017, 12:39:11 am »

Mainly in response to ToadyOne's recent post.

I hope after you send a raiding party to rescue children from the goblins, that they can be officially adopted. Imagine a 4 year old girl being brought to the fortress, scared and alone. Surrounded by strangers. Then a nice couple appears, who have no children of their own, decides to take her in.
While parenting isn't in yet, it would be cool to see the good moods from family interaction.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2017, 02:04:55 am »

Mainly in response to ToadyOne's recent post.

I hope after you send a raiding party to rescue children from the goblins, that they can be officially adopted. Imagine a 4 year old girl being brought to the fortress, scared and alone. Surrounded by strangers. Then a nice couple appears, who have no children of their own, decides to take her in.
While parenting isn't in yet, it would be cool to see the good moods from family interaction.
And the decent from disappointment into horror when goblin values and ethics are slowly revealed as the kid gets older.  :)
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Detoxicated

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2017, 09:13:30 am »

Mainly in response to ToadyOne's recent post.

I hope after you send a raiding party to rescue children from the goblins, that they can be officially adopted. Imagine a 4 year old girl being brought to the fortress, scared and alone. Surrounded by strangers. Then a nice couple appears, who have no children of their own, decides to take her in.
While parenting isn't in yet, it would be cool to see the good moods from family interaction.
And the decent from disappointment into horror when goblin values and ethics are slowly revealed as the kid gets older.  :)
Well I think maybe it is a good place to discuss ethics all over. I thinnk children should start with a mere inclination towards some ethics but eventually adopt their civs ethics through talking and such. Maybe a stubborn child does not change at all and later on leaves the fortress due to their goblinesque ethics to become a thief or a goblin supporter, or worse a dwarven elf...
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2017, 12:33:21 pm »

The subject has been a LOT in the suggestions forum if you look it up in the searchbar but its interesting if we approach it from this ethics angle.

What if we changed it so that children learn values from their parents/people they are around but require to learn values from books instead as they grow older? I mean all the original dwarves pass on their values to their children, and so on beside the normal innate values dwarves exhibit.

Humans for example could pass on VERY varied values onto the next generation, though of course if the parents aren't compatible they would have never met in the first place. A human raised by dwarves would be roughly in line with how dwarves are if they were intensively spoken to but has their own little natural quirks.

Sort of a kind of situation that a child that grows up in the wilderness raised by keas has no concepts at all of its original race and is essentially feral...

Hmm, what if we 'borrowed' animalpeople babies left behind when animalpeople give birth on the map (or dropped from the hands of a mother troll during a siege) and raised them as our own by talking to them non-stop after the are adopted? AKA - "Father-Mother" (sorry for attached spoilers)
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2017, 01:17:23 pm »

The subject has been a LOT in the suggestions forum if you look it up in the searchbar but its interesting if we approach it from this ethics angle.

What if we changed it so that children learn values from their parents/people they are around but require to learn values from books instead as they grow older? I mean all the original dwarves pass on their values to their children, and so on beside the normal innate values dwarves exhibit.

Humans for example could pass on VERY varied values onto the next generation, though of course if the parents aren't compatible they would have never met in the first place. A human raised by dwarves would be roughly in line with how dwarves are if they were intensively spoken to but has their own little natural quirks.

Sort of a kind of situation that a child that grows up in the wilderness raised by keas has no concepts at all of its original race and is essentially feral...

Hmm, what if we 'borrowed' animalpeople babies left behind when animalpeople give birth on the map (or dropped from the hands of a mother troll during a siege) and raised them as our own by talking to them non-stop after the are adopted? AKA - "Father-Mother" (sorry for attached spoilers)

The problem is that the folks outside of our onloaded fortress do not actually exist so they cannot pass anything on. 
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2017, 05:11:25 pm »

But all those folks have a basic reading of their unit state, if X is the child of Y and Z then read the two values and mishmash them together.
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Thisfox

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2017, 07:02:29 pm »

The subject has been a LOT in the suggestions forum if you look it up in the searchbar but its interesting if we approach it from this ethics angle.

What if we changed it so that children learn values from their parents/people they are around but require to learn values from books instead as they grow older? I mean all the original dwarves pass on their values to their children, and so on beside the normal innate values dwarves exhibit.

Humans for example could pass on VERY varied values onto the next generation, though of course if the parents aren't compatible they would have never met in the first place. A human raised by dwarves would be roughly in line with how dwarves are if they were intensively spoken to but has their own little natural quirks.

My dorf children, who rarely see their parents as their parents are always busy, would grow up feral too then. They'd get a lot of their friends interests though I guess.

Quote
Hmm, what if we 'borrowed' animalpeople babies left behind when animalpeople give birth on the map (or dropped from the hands of a mother troll during a siege) and raised them as our own by talking to them non-stop after the are adopted? AKA - "Father-Mother" (sorry for attached spoilers)

I do love the idea of raising animalpeople children as dorf children though.
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Putnam

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2017, 11:43:33 pm »

The subject has been a LOT in the suggestions forum if you look it up in the searchbar but its interesting if we approach it from this ethics angle.

What if we changed it so that children learn values from their parents/people they are around but require to learn values from books instead as they grow older? I mean all the original dwarves pass on their values to their children, and so on beside the normal innate values dwarves exhibit.

Humans for example could pass on VERY varied values onto the next generation, though of course if the parents aren't compatible they would have never met in the first place. A human raised by dwarves would be roughly in line with how dwarves are if they were intensively spoken to but has their own little natural quirks.

Sort of a kind of situation that a child that grows up in the wilderness raised by keas has no concepts at all of its original race and is essentially feral...

Hmm, what if we 'borrowed' animalpeople babies left behind when animalpeople give birth on the map (or dropped from the hands of a mother troll during a siege) and raised them as our own by talking to them non-stop after the are adopted? AKA - "Father-Mother" (sorry for attached spoilers)

The problem is that the folks outside of our onloaded fortress do not actually exist so they cannot pass anything on.

Completely untrue. Personalities are stored in historical figures.

FantasticDorf

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2017, 03:50:37 am »

My dorf children, who rarely see their parents as their parents are always busy, would grow up feral too then. They'd get a lot of their friends interests though I guess.

Well there are situations where they would meet, families share bedrooms (and beds) so presumably during the usually synchronous sleeping cycle of dwarves where they all have to retreat to eat/drink/sleep eventually. Read the smaller dwarves a story or something so they grow up to become productive/unproductive members of society or let the kids hang out in the tavern and speak & be influenced by the people passing through.

Plenty of bad influences tucked in there.

Quote
"Urist McForgehammer has cancelled job:Pull Lever - "Family time"

Don't forget that some dwarf values are innate (as defined on their creature)
Code: [Select]
[PERSONALITY:IMMODERATION:0:55:100]
[PERSONALITY:STRESS_VULNERABILITY:0:45:100]
[PERSONALITY:BASHFUL:0:45:100]
[PERSONALITY:SINGLEMINDED:0:55:100]
[PERSONALITY:GREED:0:55:100]

I mean just talking to strangers might be enough to stop a child being a valueless wretch unless we give people who live alone a completely different hermit set of values. (The survive goal might be in place for these people, above anything else)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 04:04:23 am by FantasticDorf »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2017, 01:37:37 pm »

Completely untrue. Personalities are stored in historical figures.

They are not onloaded unless needed.  In order to have the personalities actually pass on realistically we would have to onload the characters personality data at all times and make adjustments constantly.
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Putnam

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2017, 07:07:20 pm »

Completely untrue. Personalities are stored in historical figures.

They are not onloaded unless needed.  In order to have the personalities actually pass on realistically we would have to onload the characters personality data at all times and make adjustments constantly.

Where are you getting your information? It's wrong. I just checked. Here's a DFHack script to check:
Code: [Select]
totalHistFigs=0
histFigsWithPersonality=0

function histFigIsIntelligent(histFig)
    local caste=df.creature_raw.find(histFig.race).caste[histFig.caste]
    return caste.flags.CAN_SPEAK and caste.flags.CAN_LEARN
end

for i=0,#df.global.world.history.figures do --some mods use fake hist figs, this will avoid going through them
    local histFig=df.historical_figure.find(i)
    if histFig and histFigIsIntelligent(histFig) and not (histFig.flags.deity or histFig.flags.force) then
        totalHistFigs=totalHistFigs+1
        if histFig.info and histFig.info.personality then
            histFigsWithPersonality=histFigsWithPersonality+1
        else
            print(histFig.id)
        end
    end
end

print(histFigsWithPersonality/totalHistFigs)

This will get you a percentage of all the historical figures in the save who have their personality loaded in adventure mode. The result for a random world was 0.72432668279719, about 72% of all relevant hist figures in the world (i.e. intelligent, non-deity ones) having their personalities loaded in legends mode.

callisto8413

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 08:23:49 am »

In the Middle Ages Guilds and Churches would sometimes adopt or take care of children who had no parents.  As we have Temples in the game already, could we expand the duties of the Temple Performers to adopting and train children in the arts of dancing, singing, and prayer?

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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 08:38:39 am »

Temple performers aren't in charge of the temple. That would probably be priests which were deliberately left out for now until religion gets a revamp. More likely they would adopt the child for their own twisted needs than the temple dancer.
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Thisfox

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2017, 10:40:01 pm »

My dorf children, who rarely see their parents as their parents are always busy, would grow up feral too then. They'd get a lot of their friends interests though I guess.

Well there are situations where they would meet, families share bedrooms (and beds) so presumably during the usually synchronous sleeping cycle of dwarves where they all have to retreat to eat/drink/sleep eventually. Read the smaller dwarves a story or something so they grow up to become productive/unproductive members of society or let the kids hang out in the tavern and speak & be influenced by the people passing through.

Plenty of bad influences tucked in there.


I watched our three dorf children as often as I could for a few months. They played in their parents rooms only when their parents weren't in there (in this fort, the kids don't have their own rooms, as an experiment). They slept in their parents beds only when their parents weren't there. When their parents were home, one went to the tomb of a fallen war hero, and played Make Believe, with a gold toy forge (our fort makes toys as trade goods, and sometimes it feels like we have more gold than any other one substance). The other two went to the wellroom, and sat about, went and got food individually, and eventually one of them fell asleep on an unowned bed outside an unoccupied tomb, while the other went to the fowlhouse. Hopefully he was collecting eggs, they need collecting. He fell asleep on a pile of wood near the carpenters workshop a while later, having drunk what was probably rather a lot of cider. By this time the other children were playing makebelieve again, one in the magmaforge area, and one in the staircase. Alone. As far as I'm aware, not one of them has even spoken to a parent in over a year.

No, I don't think that they're getting any family time. And one of the parents even dreams of raising a family, yet she hasn't seen her kid in years, and hasn't raised a baby since her kid was born four years ago.
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Thisfox likes aquifers, olivine, Forgotten Beasts for their imagination, & dorfs for their stupidity. She prefers to consume gin & tonic. She absolutely detests Facebook.
"Urist McMason died out of pure spite to make you wonder why he was suddenly dead"
Oh god... Plump Helmet Man Mimes!

FantasticDorf

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Re: Adoption
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2017, 03:21:08 pm »

Perhaps maybe then we need to tie family time (like actual interactions of talking) into talking with children in order to relieve it & the amount of independence/clingyness of people to impact their childhood.

Clingy dwarf children get stressed when away from their parents etc.
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