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[Nobak]

A corpse turned up in my dining room (and meeting area), which I'm now trying to explain.

I routinely get elven diplomats from a neighbouring elven civ, as well as elven (for some reason) law-givers from a neighbouring human civ. Those two civilizations are at war with each other. They tend to stick around in my fort for ridiculous periods of time, which means they eventually meet up in my dining room, where they proceed to engage in spitting contests which the combat log interprets as a combat.

Where everything went wrong was when the diplomat from the elven civ decided to leave. On the way out, he ran into a werecreature and began "fighting". In elven fashion, that took the form of running about like a coward trying to get away, as I sent a squad after the werebeast.

The werebeast turned back and made a break for it before my dwarves reached it, and I took note of the diplomat's name because he has been bitten and I'm worried he might try to come back later on a (doomed, obviously) diplomatic mission.

I thought that was it, but shortly after I noticed an elf corpse in my refuse stockpile. Looking around in combat logs, it appears that two of my dwarves engaged the *other* one, the law-giver, seemingly at the same time as the other combat was happening. The first attack was thrown by a dwarf. My dwarves are armed at all times, and at least minimally trained, and the combat was quite brief.

So I'm left wondering what happened here. I know loyalty cascades are a thing that happens within your own civ, but could something similar have happened? The only hypothesis I can come up with would involve and excessively binary handling of "friendly/hostile":

The diplomat and the law-giver have been "in combat". They presumably still technically are, since both "combatants" are still alive. I order an attack on another creature who is also fighting the elven diplomat (and "helping" the law-giver), hence I am joining the conflict on the side of the elven diplomat. The law-giver thus turns hostile, and my dwarves who are chilling in the dining room react and maul him.

Is this plausible? If not, any other ideas? It might be relevant to add that this is the second law-giver to die at this fort, as the previous one drowned in my moat while I wasn't looking.

[newtonsolo313]

A corpse turned up in my dining room (and meeting area), which I'm now trying to explain.

I routinely get elven diplomats from a neighbouring elven civ, as well as elven (for some reason) law-givers from a neighbouring human civ. Those two civilizations are at war with each other. They tend to stick around in my fort for ridiculous periods of time, which means they eventually meet up in my dining room, where they proceed to engage in spitting contests which the combat log interprets as a combat.

Where everything went wrong was when the diplomat from the elven civ decided to leave. On the way out, he ran into a werecreature and began "fighting". In elven fashion, that took the form of running about like a coward trying to get away, as I sent a squad after the werebeast.

The werebeast turned back and made a break for it before my dwarves reached it, and I took note of the diplomat's name because he has been bitten and I'm worried he might try to come back later on a (doomed, obviously) diplomatic mission.

I thought that was it, but shortly after I noticed an elf corpse in my refuse stockpile. Looking around in combat logs, it appears that two of my dwarves engaged the *other* one, the law-giver, seemingly at the same time as the other combat was happening. The first attack was thrown by a dwarf. My dwarves are armed at all times, and at least minimally trained, and the combat was quite brief.

So I'm left wondering what happened here. I know loyalty cascades are a thing that happens within your own civ, but could something similar have happened? The only hypothesis I can come up with would involve and excessively binary handling of "friendly/hostile":

The diplomat and the law-giver have been "in combat". They presumably still technically are, since both "combatants" are still alive. I order an attack on another creature who is also fighting the elven diplomat (and "helping" the law-giver), hence I am joining the conflict on the side of the elven diplomat. The law-giver thus turns hostile, and my dwarves who are chilling in the dining room react and maul him.

Is this plausible? If not, any other ideas? It might be relevant to add that this is the second law-giver to die at this fort, as the previous one drowned in my moat while I wasn't looking.

You sure the law giver isn't from a goblin or human civ, if they are wearing leather they are not from an eleven civ

[Nobak]

You sure the law giver isn't from a goblin or human civ, if they are wearing leather they are not from an eleven civ

The law-giver is an elf but from a human civ, as I stated.

[PatrikLundell]

Why did the corpse end up in the refuse stockpile? The last time corpses of non dwarven sapients were dumped in the refuse stockpile was 0.40.24. In later versions corpses of sapients end up in the corpse stockpile.

I have no knowledge of he original question, but your proposed explanation sounds plausible (if it's somehow confirmed and the DF version is 0.43.05 it would be worth to put it on the bug tracker [A bug where the tavern erupted in slaughter at the arrival of a siege due to overly sensitive hostile detection has been fixed in a recent version: Someone's uncle or grandfather was a bandit, and some other tavern guest was rooting out evil doers]).

[Lozzymandias]

The only other idea I can possibly think of is that the were beast was somehow in the same faction as the lawgiver. Werebeasts are exiles however so that seems unlikely.

[Witty]

Might have been a drunken altercation that just happened at a coincidental time, if the law-giver was at a tavern.

[Nobak]

Why did the corpse end up in the refuse stockpile? The last time corpses of non dwarven sapients were dumped in the refuse stockpile was 0.40.24. In later versions corpses of sapients end up in the corpse stockpile.

I have no knowledge of he original question, but your proposed explanation sounds plausible (if it's somehow confirmed and the DF version is 0.43.05 it would be worth to put it on the bug tracker [A bug where the tavern erupted in slaughter at the arrival of a siege due to overly sensitive hostile detection has been fixed in a recent version: Someone's uncle or grandfather was a bandit, and some other tavern guest was rooting out evil doers]).

Oh, right. It's my "garbage" stockpile. It has corpses and some refuse enabled. Version is 0.43.03. It might be worth scouring the patch notes to see how likely this is to still be relevant, I'll try and remember to do that.

The only other idea I can possibly think of is that the were beast was somehow in the same faction as the lawgiver. Werebeasts are exiles however so that seems unlikely.

FWIW, the infected diplomat (who it turns out is female) did remain with her faction, show up the following year, and turn in the middle of my dining room filled with armed dwarves (including a stationed squad). IIRC she got a spear to the brain before she could even attempt a bite.

That's an idea worth exploring, so I brought the game into legends mode to see what I can make of it. The werebeast is an amphibian man, I can't find any link between him and either of my two elves. He is an enemy of a ton of entities, but none that relate to either of them.

Might have been a drunken altercation that just happened at a coincidental time, if the law-giver was at a tavern.

Unfortunately, it's a dining room/meeting area, with a manually-created meeting zone over it, but not a tavern.

[Lozzymandias]

The only other idea I can possibly think of is that the were beast was somehow in the same faction as the lawgiver. Werebeasts are exiles however so that seems unlikely.

FWIW, the infected diplomat (who it turns out is female) did remain with her faction, show up the following year, and turn in the middle of my dining room filled with armed dwarves (including a stationed squad). IIRC she got a spear to the brain before she could even attempt a bite.

That's an idea worth exploring, so I brought the game into legends mode to see what I can make of it. The werebeast is an amphibian man, I can't find any link between him and either of my two elves. He is an enemy of a ton of entities, but none that relate to either of them.

Hmmmmmmm, there is a difference between turning werebeast in world generation, which is usually accompanied with a driving out event, and having lyc/mammoth/mooseanthropy thrust on a character during an active fortress, which I don't think will tend to include a driving out event, so no exiling and de-factioning. The amphibian man would have to do a profane act to get the curse, therefore it follows he must have had an association with a god...? Do animal men tribes have gods? do they need to join a civilisation to find a god, is a temple necessary to do any profaning? We need some unholy research here.

[Nobak]

Hmmmmmmm, there is a difference between turning werebeast in world generation, which is usually accompanied with a driving out event, and having lyc/mammoth/mooseanthropy thrust on a character during an active fortress, which I don't think will tend to include a driving out event, so no exiling and de-factioning. The amphibian man would have to do a profane act to get the curse, therefore it follows he must have had an association with a god...? Do animal men tribes have gods? do they need to join a civilisation to find a god, is a temple necessary to do any profaning? We need some unholy research here.

Kara Pinefrogs
No related figures, so no deity

In early autumn of 297, Kara became chieftain of The Spots of Vanishment*
In midwinter of 327, Kara profaned The Temple of Liberty in Griptaxes
In midwinter of 327, the human deity The Scholarly Book cursed Kara to assume the form of a capybara-like monster every full moon
In midwinter of 327, Kara moved out of Rampagedcracks the Gloom of Tunneling of The Spots of Vanishment in Griptaxes
In midwinter of 327, Kara began wandering The Hill of Combinations
In early autumn of 357, Kara bit the elf werebeast Salore Roarsravens, passing on the capybara monster curse

*The Spots of Vanishment
amphibian_man outcast
In 205, The Spots of Vanishment formed in Rampagedcracks the Gloom of Tunneling in Griptaxes


So basically Kara lived with an outcast group in the sewers in the city of Griptaxes, where the temple he profaned also was.

Interestingly, there is another amphibian woman werebeast, also formerly from the Spots of Vanishment, who profaned the same temple. I think she may have even visited my fort and fought with a few of my dwarves for a spell before turning back and escaping, but legends mode has no info on the incident so I can't confirm.

[Thisfox]

I can't get over the name "The Spots of Vanishment". It's like a soap advertisement... "Our laundry detergent will make spots on your clothing vanish like disappearing ink"....

[Lozzymandias]

Hmmmmmmm, there is a difference between turning werebeast in world generation, which is usually accompanied with a driving out event, and having lyc/mammoth/mooseanthropy thrust on a character during an active fortress, which I don't think will tend to include a driving out event, so no exiling and de-factioning. The amphibian man would have to do a profane act to get the curse, therefore it follows he must have had an association with a god...? Do animal men tribes have gods? do they need to join a civilisation to find a god, is a temple necessary to do any profaning? We need some unholy research here.

Kara Pinefrogs
No related figures, so no deity

In early autumn of 297, Kara became chieftain of The Spots of Vanishment*
In midwinter of 327, Kara profaned The Temple of Liberty in Griptaxes
In midwinter of 327, the human deity The Scholarly Book cursed Kara to assume the form of a capybara-like monster every full moon
In midwinter of 327, Kara moved out of Rampagedcracks the Gloom of Tunneling of The Spots of Vanishment in Griptaxes
In midwinter of 327, Kara began wandering The Hill of Combinations
In early autumn of 357, Kara bit the elf werebeast Salore Roarsravens, passing on the capybara monster curse

*The Spots of Vanishment
amphibian_man outcast
In 205, The Spots of Vanishment formed in Rampagedcracks the Gloom of Tunneling in Griptaxes


So basically Kara lived with an outcast group in the sewers in the city of Griptaxes, where the temple he profaned also was.

Interestingly, there is another amphibian woman werebeast, also formerly from the Spots of Vanishment, who profaned the same temple. I think she may have even visited my fort and fought with a few of my dwarves for a spell before turning back and escaping, but legends mode has no info on the incident so I can't confirm.

Sterling research! What this tells us is you don't need to be in a civilisation associated with the temple or be in a relationship with the god to get a curse you just need access to the temple.

It seems that the amphibian wasn't in the same faction as the law giver so I guess your dwarfs treated it like an escalation of conflict. Further question. Did your dwarfs get a chance to have a stab at her before she fled? Possibly both parties are considered party to the escalation

[Nobak]

Sterling research! What this tells us is you don't need to be in a civilisation associated with the temple or be in a relationship with the god to get a curse you just need access to the temple.

It seems that the amphibian wasn't in the same faction as the law giver so I guess your dwarfs treated it like an escalation of conflict. Further question. Did your dwarfs get a chance to have a stab at her before she fled? Possibly both parties are considered party to the escalation

No, my dwarfs did not get to attack the werebeast Kara. The diplomat actually saw him and started running before I got the announcement. I was watching him leave to make sure he didn't go and dive in the moat.

I feel like the fact that Salore (the diplomat who was attacked by the werebeast) and Ishas (the law-giver) were members of civilizations that were at war with each other might be a factor.