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Which team did you play in the last game?

Glorious Arstotzka
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Glorious Moskurg
- 13 (12.3%)
Ingloriously Didn't Play
- 76 (71.7%)

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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 551320 times)

andrea

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3675 on: June 12, 2017, 05:16:51 am »

I am not saying to do it now, I am saying that if we design a sub, I want a lander first so we can exploit that window of opportunity.

Sheb

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3676 on: June 12, 2017, 06:23:26 am »

Anyway, it's not design phase yet, is it? Do we need to do anything before the battle?
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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3677 on: June 12, 2017, 06:35:22 am »

Nothing to do but wait.
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andrea

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3678 on: June 12, 2017, 06:40:52 am »

wait, and make plans that will be destroyed by next battle phase.

somemildmanneredidiot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3679 on: June 12, 2017, 08:45:27 am »

My purposed plan of action over the next some turns assuming Cannala doesn't ROLFSTOMP us:

Note: This plan does not account for the Cannala's doing something crazy like preempting ICBM or some shit, but it does take into account their likely priorities and counter moves.

Expected Cannala Reaction to this turn: Salt @ 300mm defensive grids that rose up over night. Attempts to take the skies for dive bombers or other methods of air delivered death.

This upcoming:
Design: Cruiser; Revision: Archer-Lander
This will provide our carriers with much needed defense as well as a platform for our 300mm, plus possible 300mm improvements such as rangefinding and etc. It fills a niche that doesn't exist on the battlefield quite yet and should make many of their ships negligible, or at least confronted.The Archer-Lander because we need a lander and we might as well use the Archer for something.

Seriously, one of the primary reasons we're losing the Naval fight is because we have unsupported Carriers, and a ship with a 100% casualty rate. One direct combat ship of decent quality alone will make a world of difference. Plus it'll act as an excellent platform for upcoming weapon systems, as well as a strong bombardment system for land assaults. Really, we want this because of the weapons we'll be able to mount on it.

This move enacts counter-carrier measures with the range of bombardment of our Cruisers, therefore helping prevent their planes from reaching our Naval Guns.

Turn After:

Expected Cannala Move: Submarines or Moar Air. Assuming we don't have sonar, Subs are a strong move to kill our Cruisers, otherwise they'll need to go for a straight slug fest or push for stronger air to fight us onto the shores.

Design: Sonar; Revision: Better Radar or Better Sonar
This counter picks Subs before they come out, while helping us with their mines. It also gives us more tech experience with Radar and the like, helping us step up into Guided Rockets. Plus better Radar means better antiair measures. If they don't go with subs, we'll still have helped advanced several techs that are necessary for the advancement of other weaponry as well as have strong protection against Subs whenever they do come out. Plus it'll help with the creation of our own subs as Sonar is quite useful for navigation and such.

Next Turn +2:

Expected Cannala Move: Unknown. Possibly doubling down on air.

Design: Guided Rockets; Revision: Better Guided Rockets
I want the PAROI Party to have a majority before this game is over. Also it's a real good design and will allow for advances in every front. Plus, Missile Cruisers.

Turnium Nextus the Third:

Expected Cannala Move: Anti-Whatever Method We're Using To Control Our Rockets. The salt I expect over guided rockets aka missiles will almost certainly cause a direct counter action towards it.

Design: Jet Fighter That Can Use Guided Rockets; Revision: Fix The Fighter Or Better Guided Rockets.

OR

Design: Submarine; Revision: Fix Sub or Transport Sub.

OR

Design: Jet Bomber; Revision: Jet Transport or Better Bombs or IDK

At this point I don't have a solid idea of Cannala reaction or what will advance things the best first, so it ends up being a matter of whichever direction we want to go for things.

Flaws: This plan depends on decent rolls, no botches, that the 300mm and the Cruiser will be sufficient to prevent landfall for at least two turns, and that they don't decided to go for an Uber Armored Lander that is somehow Cheap.

Critiques? Questions? Concerns?
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3680 on: June 12, 2017, 09:17:55 am »

Hmm. I think ebbor and eS are right to say that their reaction to us building a cruiser will be to build a bigger, better ship themselves, not branch out into experimental submarines. I disagree that that means we should never ever build a cruiser. I think we have more to gain than they do. Even if they design a ship to kill our cruisers, it is unlikely it will have as easy a time killing them as they currently do killing the Archer.
You mention possible improvements to the guns when building the cruiser. Bad idea, I think. ebbor and eS are again right to say that we have little experience building warships of that nature. The less extra bells and whistles we glue on, the better. I am convinced that simply making an armoured hull and sticking preexisting guns on it will be Normal, but anything beyond that will likely be Hard.

Developing sonar before they develop subs is ill-advised, I think. With their naval expertise, they could just only build surface ships, meaning we wasted a design. Unless we kept the sonar secret until after they unveil a sub, but I doubt we would be allowed to do that.

The stuff beyond that is too speculative. I mean, they all seem like decent ideas, but I have no idea what order we should do them in. Even next turn's designs depend on the outcome of the battle phase, although in many scenarios I could get behind a cruiser.
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Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3681 on: June 12, 2017, 09:24:15 am »

Discussion ongoing on Discord. Alternative plan:

Turn 1:
Design: Advanced Jet Fighter (Hold our air advantage, don't let them even get CLOSE to overcoming it)
Revision: Basic rocket guidance---Wire-guided. Add television capability?

Turn 2:
Design: Build new destroyer
Revision: Archer conversions (Landing craft AND rocket armament)

Turn 3:
Design: New radar, much smaller than existing models---small enough to be put in a plane or missile. 
Revision: rockets to use said radar

Turn 4:
Design: Very large radar-guided bombs capable of hitting and sinking ships
Revision: Jet-powered Reckless capable of dropping them from the rear hatch.

Turn 5:
Design: The A-10 Warthog, WWII style
Revision: Midsize antitank missiles
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andrea

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3682 on: June 12, 2017, 09:27:25 am »

I think you are EXTREMELY optimistic on how east missiles would be. You spend a total of... 2 revisions on them? with a bit of help from a bomb?

somemildmanneredidiot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3683 on: June 12, 2017, 09:31:33 am »

Definitely fair on it being speculative. I see the sub as an economic alternative to "An Even Bigger Better Ship" as the Cruisers will likely be Expensive/V Expensive, so anything bigger than that for them will likely be at least one expense grade up. Subs will cost less resources and also provide at least a turn of "Hah! You don't have Sonar so fuck youuuuuu~" which is why I have Sonar slotted as a preventative to cause them wreckage. Plus it will help with their mines and help advance other related tech.

Something with the Madman plan is that TC wise, next turn we either need to challenge their Navy or build more TC, as that will help ease a great many things with Cheap and Expensive items.
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Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3684 on: June 12, 2017, 09:44:23 am »

One revision to add wire guidance to our preexisting rockets. Might not work, you never know. But it shouldn't be terribly hard, especially without TV capability. After that though, it's a design for the radar, a revision to the wire-guided rockets to make use of said radar. Then a design to scale up to ship-killingly-big guided glide bombs or even large missiles. And a revision for jet Reckless, but that doesn't really matter.

Total: 2 designs, 2 revisions. The starting revision is the only possible issue, and we could probably just go for an overall improvements revision on the Thunderbird instead of making a new jet, allowing us to spend design on wire guidance, and even the revision....assuming they don't go all-out jet warfare on us.

We might need to change things around if the wire guidance doesn't work, but WG is fairly easy without TV---all you're doing is sending simple electrical signals down a cable that then adjusts fins based on signal.
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andrea

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3685 on: June 12, 2017, 09:50:02 am »

wire itself is easy(ish).  But you are talking about an entire avionics package for a rocket, control surfaces and all. And you need a new rocket as well, since right now we have none sized for the role.

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3686 on: June 13, 2017, 03:30:08 pm »

Battle Report 12: Spring 1940

Are you sure you're not reading each other's threads?
You keep making weirdly similar shit. Cut it out!

Island Names:
The Northern Island is, now and forever, called Tereshkova. Also, Cannala gets to name the plains, and they've had the right to name the Tundra for a while (or they named the tundra already and I forgot).

Territory Gain Rules:
Right now we've had a couple turns where both sides are attacking in the same lane, but trying to make landfall on enemy islands. Right now I've been evaluating each separately and I think if they both gain ground, I'll have whoever did so by a lesser margin get cut off so there's not a weird dual-front in the same lane. However I've also been sort of going against my rule that one side must gain ground if they attack in the same lane. Do you think I should keep running it the way I have been, or require one side to successfully make landfall and gain 1 piece of the next island? An alternative might be to track who has 'initiative' in the sea part of a lane somehow, so that both sides can't attack opposite sides of the sea section at the same time (this would be more similar to how I ran it in the old games where everyone attacked every turn).

List Lengths:
I'm running afoul of Bay12's 40,000 character limit for posts again. I'm cutting down on some legacy weapon descriptions, if you need the full flavorful versions you can read older posts. I'm on the verge of starting a goddamn wiki or something.

New Equipment:

This turn, the Forenians have design the UF-ASA-40 Overcompensator, a giant 30cm gun for shore defense emplacements. It is built into concrete bunkers, and the general performance of the gun is not impressive but the use of Forenia's existing rocket-assisted artillery shells gives it a very significant range. Its enormous shells are lifted, assembled and rammed into the barrel by an electrical system which allows the gun to fire twice a minute, but it requires a power source, either a coal powered generator in another nearby bunker or above-ground power lines if the generator is not nearby, which are a vulnerability. For their revision, the al-Tawbrinat company has made the aT-J04 B jet engine, a redesign of existing jet engines which uses materials which are less expensive to procure and manufacture but still effective at serving their purposes. Their Thunderbird jets are now cheaper.

Forenia has used their improved shipping capacity to add one Ore to their resources, sourced from the Jungle.
The Sea Lift has gone from Very Expensive to Expensive. The Salamander, and T2 Breaker have become cheap, and the Overcompensator is cheap specifically because of this new resource increase.

Cannala has done a direct one-up on Forenia, their team is more experienced with ships and cannons and has managed to mount some 12" (30cm to Forenians) guns on the Victoria-Class Battlecruiser, which has 6 12" guns in three turrets, with a more advanced director system which can calculate firing solutions based on a multitude of inputs. The Victoria uses a citadel layout with heavy armor, like the Khorne. It is also Cannala's first diesel-electric ship, but the diesel engines aren't as powerful as steam turbines and the ship is quite slow. It also takes advantage of Cannala's Eagle Eye Revision this turn: Existing Eagle Eye radar systems, which could detect air targets but not surface targets, are now available in a separate version which can detect ships and coastlines but not air targets. The Victoria is normally equipped with this, and the radar operator can coordinate with the fire team.

Cannala has also re-introduced the Juraki Immortal Armor, which allows soldiers to double-layer their chest and back armor plates (which are held in a convenient carrier rig) for more protection. It will be used chiefly by aircraft crews, and gunners for fixed guns.

The Forenian Army currently has the following equipment:
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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3687 on: June 13, 2017, 03:35:20 pm »

The Cannalan army currently has the following equipment:
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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1940 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #3688 on: June 13, 2017, 03:35:41 pm »

The War This Turn:
Forenia is attacking to regain the plains, and again attempting landfall on the Tundra. Cannala is attempting to regain the Jungle, as well as push on to Mt Konstantin in the south. Cannala has used their expense credit on the Victoria, rendering it Expensive.

The Battle at Sea
Spring brings clear weather.

Cannala's new Victoria Battlecruiser is the pride of the sea, its 12" guns give it an absolutely drastic range advantage, and its numbers are great enough thanks to Cannala's stashed drug money this season that they are the main source of Cannala's firepower. With such a drastic range advantage, Forenia's shipboard armaments are close to useless. From the surface, the guns can engage from not long after enemies enter visual range. The only big downside of the Victoria is that it's slow, Forenian naval forces retreat from its sight when they can to let their planes fight it out. However, when Cannala manages to encircle Forenian forces (and thanks to their superior naval skills and decent numbers, they do) the Forenians are quickly destroyed. Forenia spends a lot of time, and loses a lot of territory, just trying to desperately avoid ship-on-ship combat. Sometimes when bad weather rolls in the new Eagle Eye radar even allows the Victoria to hit ships it can't see, although the radar is imprecise and not very well suited for this task.

On the other hand, Forenia's new aT-J04b jet engines have allowed their Thunderbirds to be deployed in equal number to the Cannalan Spearhead jets. The Forenians are superior pilots and now that they're no longer outnumbered, they regain air superiority. If their carriers and radar ships are safe, they can wear down the Cannalans with air attacks. The Haast attack planes have been launching fully armed from the Zheleznogorod carriers since those were first introduced, and it must be said that even the Victoria is vulnerable to 'Dolphin' magnetically detonated torpedoes, of which each Haast carries two and can drop at a speed and altitude which gives them a good chance of surviving AA fire. A couple torpedoes to the citadel area is likely to disable a Victoria as facilities such as the magazine and engines become inoperable. Fire bombs are still effective against Cannalan ships, although the armored turrets of the Victoria, being remotely operated by a fire control team belowdecks, are not easily disabled in this fashion.

A Forenian Sea Lift being used as a hospital ship, the Limping Tiger, reported being attacked, and has been disappeared. Attacking this ship would constitute a war crime, and Cannala has denied any involvement.

Cannala has a Major Naval Advantage this season.

The Battle for the Jungle:

Attacking: Cannala

Cannala's assault seeks to drive the Forenians back out of the jungle and deny them the ore there. Forenians on shore detect Cannalan fleets by radar and fire first, with the impressive range of their Overcompensator guns. From the point of view of a spotting tower or radar array on the shore, the rocket-assisted 30cm shells are capable of striking targets which haven't yet appeared over the horizon. During attempts by airborne spotters to direct Overcompensator fire, however, "capable" may be too strong a word, at this range the guns control systems are too imprecise and the shells too inaccurate to accomplish much, on an occasion a Cannalan ship might be struck as a matter of luck. The 30cm shells are effective, whatever they strike will be reliably disabled but heavy citadel armor can prevent multiple major systems from being compromised at once.

When the Victoria ships close into range of the shore, they can begin targeting the Overcompensator guns. At this point the Forenians will have the advantage of their radar and spotters for more accurately targeting the ships, and the fact that they do not have the added challenge of firing on the water, so Cannala begins to see casualties. The Victoria Battlecruisers eventually destroy enough Overcompensator guns to make a gap shore defenses, but this fighting creates a standoff where Forenian air forces have more time to act.

By the time Cannala hits the shore, some of their Walrus landers have been torpedoed and a portion of their Victoria Battlecruisers have been lost. They are capable of shore bombardment within a good distance of the coast (when men on the ground can provide accurate coordinates) but eventually the Forenians, who still have an advantage in infantry combat and benefit from their now-cheaper Salamander, drive Cannalan forces back.

Cannala fails to gain ground. [Forenia 4/4]

The Battle for the Plains:
Attacking: Forenia

Forenia's naval forces are weathered by Cannala's attacks heavily before reaching the shore, and an entire Sea Lift is lost to Cannala's mines. When they do arrive, the Forenian aircraft have driven back enemy ships for a short time and, though now fewer in number, moved to support the ground assault. Salamanders are dropped into the water in massive numbers, carrying the majority of the Forenian infantry. Raiders being used for shore defense are quickly overwhelmed by the Salamander's superior armor (although the turret-mounted RPG's help, they can't easily be reloaded under fire and have a short range). The Forenians make a heroic effort but ultimately their losses at sea were too much.

Forenia does not gain a foothold. [Cannala 4/4, Forenia 0/4]

The battle for Mt. Konstantin:

This plays out essentially the same as the Jungle; the Cannalan forces are weakened when they reach the shore and they don't have an advantage in land combat to make up for it.

Events outside the War:

The Outside World:

Italy invades Greece, beginning the Balkan Campaign. Germany commissions the first of what will be its prolific Type VIIC U-boats, and Britain launches its first aircraft carrier assault on an anchored Italian battle fleet, taking tactical cues from Cannala's forays into this type of warfare. Covnetry, England is largely destroyed by Luftwaffe bombers.  The RAF responds by bombing Hamburg. The Patria Disaster occurs: Britain has attempted to deport Jewish refugees in British-controlled Palestine, aboard the SS Patria. The Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah set off a bomb on the ship, killing 250 refugees and crew. The British begin Operation Compass, fighting Italian forces in Egypt. They see significant tank and armored car losses to Italian RPGs, manufactured in Germany from the Forenian AS-RPG28A design.

In America, Walt Disney's Fantasia is released in theaters. It is initially a failure at the box office but recoups its budget later in the year and becomes regarded as a classic. Cannalans consider the film to be a bunch of abstract nonsense. The cartoon Woody Woodpecker debuts as well, which is more to Cannalan taste. The De Haviland Mosquito and B-26 Marauder both make their first flights. Captain America first appears in comics, quickly prompting Cannalan imitation of the same idea. Plutonium is first synthesized in the United States (although this is kept secret). Mahatma Gandhi writes letters to Hitler, asking him to stop the war he has begun.

Alliances:
Forenia has declined Hitler's mandate that they formally bar communist sympathizers from Parliament, and maintain a minimum number of seats for the National Forenian People's Party (which was reached through negotiation on their own part as an alternative to the Nazi party). They do at least offer as consolation that the majority of the Forenian Socialist Party has disappeared to live underground in the sewers beneath the capitol city, which is mostly greeted with incredulity. The Fuhrer is in a furor, but he is mollified when a Forenian representative travels to Germany to demonstrate a Thunderbird fighter plane. "Oh ja, amazing wunderwaffe!" his translator says, "Though Herr Heinkel vill not be happy with zis."

The Cannalans also demonstrated their Spearhead fighter for the Royal Air Force, who were pleased with its performance and commissioned an American company to produce some for combat testing as soon as possible.

Local Events:
In Forenia, political violence continues unabated, and frequent riots are starting to show a death toll. Arstotzkans continue to persecute Moskurgs, who retaliate in return. Moskurg author Raafat al-Hayim narrowly avoided being injured by a mail bomb, which he threw into his house's pool. A group of Arstotzkans were caught attempting to defect from the army, but even under interrogation they wouldn't say where they were going. However, that's not the worst of it- a Forenian engineer, named Sheb, has been investigated by secret police and found to have been performing favors for a group which is attempting to bring about an Arstotzkan revolution in Forenia, helping soldiers defect and stealing supplies. Some mild mannered idiot was investigated on related suspicions, but was found only to be an ordinary mild mannered idiot. The Moderate Party (which holds a plurality of parliament seats) warns that the Arstotzkan Nationalist conspiracy may be deep and far-reaching, and that there may be a Moskurg Nationalist rebel group as well. All Forenian citizens are reminded to be on their guard, and alert Forenian Secret Police to any suspicious characters. The Arstotzkan Nationalist parliamentary party denies any connection to this group, and their support continues to grow.

In Cannala, Presidente Eduardo Charpes has taken the advice of his engineering panel and chosen to fund the Juraki housing program, taxing wealthy Cannalans to provide homes for the Juraki who left the Debt Reimbursement Camps with hardly any material posessions. The benefits of this may not be immediate, and it has aroused the ire of many Cannalan citizens. There was an attempt to pipe-bomb El Presidente's limousine shortly after the public announcement of his new policy, the citizen responsible has not been apprehended. In a historical landmark, a majority of the Brethren Court (Cannala's branch of the government which acts like a senate) voted to veto Charpes' new housing policy, but they did not reach the 70% supermajority necessary to overturn him. This is the first time any member of the Brethren Court, however, has voted against a presidential policy in almost 50 years.

Turn 13, Commence!

You may now begin voting for your design phase!
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3689 on: June 13, 2017, 03:53:22 pm »

Well that sucks.  Cannala did exactly what we did, but also put it on a ship and gave it better aiming.

The report seems to imply that a naval advantage (or at least no advantage either way) is needed to make landfall, which super-duper sucks because we are many, many turns from that. 

A cruiser is a bad idea, I think.  I want us to design a wire-guided sonar torpedo - which means developing sonar.  It'll be useful for putting out a sub, which may be the only decent chance we have at upsetting the naval advantage.  Hell, just putting out sonar will help - naval mines are explicitly mentioned as a problem several times in this report and literally every other report before this.
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