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Author Topic: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/11  (Read 40330 times)

Stirk

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2017, 02:03:37 am »

The Prom has a bit too many special ammos for one design phase. Its a bit late at night to write up a concrete rule change, but in general you could make the design with the explosive and buckshot ammunition just fine. The rest would need to be separate ammunition. This doesn't apply to things like the Lodestone, were the special ammunition is what is getting all the attention.

As a quick explanation of special ammunition rules: Basically they act like a separate piece of equipment. You don't run out of them and there is no "bullet counting", but they can only equip one soldier at a time. A soldier can carry multiple special ammunition at once, and switch between them as needed.
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Mallos

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2017, 02:14:00 am »

Quote
0 M4-2 Rifle: | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460694#msg7460694
1 "Lodestone" shotgun: Hibou/2 Mallos/1 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460716#msg7460716
0 MNSTR1 rockets: | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460718#msg7460718
0 Flashlights:
2.5 Prom-GLS-1 grenades: RAM/2, Hibou/1, Happerry/1 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460729#msg7460729
1 "WP" 5.56×45mm incendiary bullets: RAM/2 Mallos/2| http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460757#msg7460757
3.5 SD1 "Oversight" scanner: RAM/1, Hibou/2, Chiefwaffles/1 Mallos/1 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460758#msg7460758

EDIT: Fixed my votes accounting for Stirk's disapproval of the Prom.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 02:17:50 am by Mallos »
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Kashyyk

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2017, 04:00:46 am »

Ohey. I was actually thinking about World Task Force recently,  and wishing I was any good at stream lining my games (because I'm really not). PTW.
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Stirk

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2017, 04:18:19 am »

Ohey. I was actually thinking about World Task Force recently,  and wishing I was any good at stream lining my games (because I'm really not). PTW.

It was a great game, super memorable (Its been three years now!) but it was also pretty ambitious. Five players each doing different things makes for a lot of bookkeeping and writing. It was amazing that you managed to keep it going as long as you did! Just changing it to a suggestion game would make it more manageable, effectively having one player to deal with instead of five. The rules are fairly streamlined already, you just bit off a bit more than you could chew with that player amount.
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RAM

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2017, 02:44:08 pm »

Are we going to be responsible for categorisation, or is the organisation going to be doing that for us? I mean, taxonomy is probably going to be important, and there are a lot of resaons why a dead person might get up and attack people. If you have specialists who can identify them as "zombies" and inform us that "undead" are particularly active then we don't have to worry. But if not, then we might want to put some consideration into how we will define our sets...
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Madman198237

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2017, 04:02:26 pm »

Quote
0 M4-2 Rifle: | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460694#msg7460694
1 "Lodestone" shotgun: Hibou/2 Mallos/1 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460716#msg7460716
0 MNSTR1 rockets: | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460718#msg7460718
0 Flashlights:
3.5 Prom-GLS-1 grenades: RAM/2, Hibou/1, Happerry/1, Madman198237/1 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460729#msg7460729
1 "WP" 5.56×45mm incendiary bullets: RAM/2 Mallos/2| http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460757#msg7460757
3.5 SD1 "Oversight" scanner: RAM/1, Hibou/2, Chiefwaffles/1 Mallos/1 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460758#msg7460758

So, how does the "and two halves" work anyway? Can I drop a full 2-point vote on something? And why not just use single votes? Single votes make more sense. You either like something, or you don't, and you either like it better, or you don't.

In other words:
Quote
Switch to a single vote system (1): Madman198237
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2017, 04:05:52 pm »

The Prom has a bit too many special ammos for one design phase. Its a bit late at night to write up a concrete rule change, but in general you could make the design with the explosive and buckshot ammunition just fine. The rest would need to be separate ammunition. This doesn't apply to things like the Lodestone, were the special ammunition is what is getting all the attention.

As a quick explanation of special ammunition rules: Basically they act like a separate piece of equipment. You don't run out of them and there is no "bullet counting", but they can only equip one soldier at a time. A soldier can carry multiple special ammunition at once, and switch between them as needed.
To the people voting for the Prom-GLS-1.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

Stirk

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2017, 04:28:48 pm »

Are we going to be responsible for categorisation, or is the organisation going to be doing that for us? I mean, taxonomy is probably going to be important, and there are a lot of resaons why a dead person might get up and attack people. If you have specialists who can identify them as "zombies" and inform us that "undead" are particularly active then we don't have to worry. But if not, then we might want to put some consideration into how we will define our sets...

You will get a name and description of the Monster, which will be filled with what you know of it. That information will include things like what monsters are related to it (Eg a Ghoul might be noted as a Vampire's minion), but it won't put them in any specific categories.
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RAM

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2017, 05:20:22 pm »

So, how does the "and two halves" work anyway? Can I drop a full 2-point vote on something? And why not just use single votes? Single votes make more sense. You either like something, or you don't, and you either like it better, or you don't.
By having one full-value vote and two half-value votes you can vote on your favourite and then say you like a couple of others, or not, you don't need to use all your votes any more than you need to vote at all...

No, you cannot. The whole point is to spread out the votes over more than one thing. That way things that are generally liked but are nobody's favourite have a chance if the favourites are all over the place. Also, if there are two similar things and one unique thing then the majority can lose if they half their votes amongs the two similar ideas while the minority all vote for the single idea that has no competition and this provides a little pressure against it. It is also interesting to see a bit more data on people's preferences... But having more than one of your selections on a single vote would be bad, you have your favourite and two things you like, not two favourites(probably, it isn't entirely terrible) and definitely not more than a single vote for a single item.

Single votes "make more sense" in the sense of being simpler, and thus easier to process. One-and-two-halves makes more sense in terms of representing what people want because people usually have more preference than just "this single one here is the only thing that I want". I feel that this system is still very simple. It is still just putting single votes against ideas, it is just that you get three of them, and two of them are worth less. If I wanted complex then I would go for a preferential system, but I cannot see that being adopted and it properly requires adherence and it would properly increase clutter so I didn't even try.
Or to use your own phrasing... "You either like something, or you don't, and you either like it better, or you don't." With this method you get to select two of the things that you like, but aren't the one that you like better. With just a single vote you would have to throw away everything except the one single most intense instace of "like it better" so in effect the description would be "You either like it the most, or you don't" which you said yourself is not the case.


Quote
Switch to a single vote system (1): Madman198237
1 Keep the weird half-votes like some sort of weird weirdoes: RAM
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Mallos

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2017, 06:10:37 pm »

RAM makes good points. One and two halves works much better.

Quote
Switch to a single vote system (1): Madman198237
2 Keep the weird half-votes like some sort of weird weirdoes: RAM, Mallos
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RAM

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2017, 06:53:13 pm »

Quote
0 M4-2 Rifle: | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460694#msg7460694
1 "Lodestone" shotgun: Hibou/2, Mallos/2 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460716#msg7460716
0 MNSTR1 rockets: | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460718#msg7460718
0 Flashlights:
3.5 Prom-GLS-1 grenades: RAM/2, Hibou/1, Happerry/1, Madman198237/1 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460729#msg7460729
1 "WP" 5.56×45mm incendiary bullets: RAM/2, Mallos/2| http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460757#msg7460757
3.5 SD1 "Oversight" scanner: RAM/1, Hibou/2, Chiefwaffles/1, Mallos/1 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460758#msg7460758
Nothing to see here...
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Madman198237

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2017, 08:06:56 pm »

But the problem with half-votes is they make no sense in a democratic fashion. You'll force the majority to lose to their second choice if none of them do the math. Seriously though, if most people think something is the best choice, than that one wins. If there's a tie, you hold a tiebreaker. Then you consider measures like split votes (You have 4 quarters. Spend them as you will) or something. Until then, it should be a simple-majority thing, in order to keep things simple.
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RAM

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2017, 09:16:51 pm »

You'll force the majority to lose to their second choice if none of them do the math.
How does that work? Examples:
Quote
mahority proposal: 10 votes(v)
Minority proposal: 8v
lesser minority proposal: 6v
Everyone's second choice: 24/2=12v
In the above, everyone agreed that the winner was good enough, and no single group was large enough to get their favourite to win. Thus democracy was served by deferring to a compromise, as that was what the people agreed to. Is it really so bad to think that democracy might sometimes try to be 'good enough' for everyone rather than purely pandering to the majority community?
Quote
Majority idea: 6 votes
Minority idea: 4 votes+6 half-votes=7v
The mahority all liked the good thing, but were okay with the alternative. The minority were militant fanatics who insisted on withholding their votes in order to give their favourite a better chance of winning, or they just really hated the majority idea. If team 'withhold votes so my idea wins' is distributed that unevenly, then something weird is going on, the majority(or some portion of them) could have done the same thing. If the majority were all okay with the minority idea, and the minority all felt that the majority favourite was a vile chunk of refuse, then their feelings on that matter have been reflected and I feel that the correct result has been provided. I mean, it is not as though the majority didn't like the minority idea, just that they wanted something else more.

I just don't see a scenario in which not doing the maths is going to result in an unwanted outcome, unless supporters of one thing are all trying to metavote and the supporters of the other thing are all just voting for what they want. Which would be odd, because everyone can metavote if they want to, it shouldn't be skewed that much.
Seriously though, if most people think something is the best choice, then that one wins.
Quote
Radar-guided missiles: 6 votes+5halves=8.5v
Ship-mounted radar-scanners: 5 votes + 6 halves=8v
Orion drive: 7v
There are 11 people who want some sort of radar and will want both missiles and scanners soon, and 7 people who want bomb-based propulsion. Most people think radar is the best choice, but do not agree on which sort of radar. Bomb-drive wins if we rely upon primary votes only...
If there's a tie, you hold a tiebreaker. Then you consider measures like split votes (You have 4 quarters. Spend them as you will) or something. Until then, it should be a simple-majority thing, in order to keep things simple.
I feel as though this is simple 'enough'. People can just vote for one thing if they want. It is a little tricky to look through three times as many votes and to track two types of votes, but that still seems pretty easy to me. There are lots of more complex systems that could be used, I went for something that was still very simple. "Vote for what you want, but you get to make little votes for a couple of other things. If people keep failing to vote coherently then I will concede that we cannot have nice things.

How many experience points is democracy worth?
Ooooh, I wonder if we can research class and skill levels...
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 09:31:22 pm by RAM »
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Stirk

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2017, 09:36:13 pm »

Quote
How many experience points is democracy worth?
Ooooh, I wonder if we can research class and skill levels...

Researching training, techniques, and tactics is a valid thing to do.

Also, we have a tie folks :-X.
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VoidSlayer

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Re: Project PROMETHEUS: Supernatural Arms Race Phase 1/1
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2017, 09:41:27 pm »

There were grenade launchers or grenades or something like that right?

 Prom-GLS-1 grenades


I'll change my vote for that.  We can always refine them to be anti-specific monster later.

And if high explosives don't kill something at least we know we have to get more creative.
Quote
0 M4-2 Rifle: | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460694#msg7460694
1 "Lodestone" shotgun: Hibou/2, Mallos/2 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460716#msg7460716
0 MNSTR1 rockets: | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460718#msg7460718
0 Flashlights:
4.5 Prom-GLS-1 grenades: RAM/2, Hibou/1, Happerry/1, Madman198237/1, 1 voidslayer | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460729#msg7460729
1 "WP" 5.56×45mm incendiary bullets: RAM/2, Mallos/2| http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460757#msg7460757
3.5 SD1 "Oversight" scanner: RAM/1, Hibou/2, Chiefwaffles/1, Mallos/1 | http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164218.msg7460758#msg7460758
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