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[Biowraith]

How's the end-game design and balance though?  Still all the wild hunt and sneak-touch-attack ghosts with the possibility of ending up with a level 15 party of only 2-3 members to fight them with?

[ChairmanPoo]

I dont think the balance has changed at all. Its pretty lame.

The big bugs are all squashed, early game is basically bug free (except for whatever weirdness the DLC added) and late game the bugs are minor.

The first weirdness it added is that the game doesnt recognize the DLC for some people

[thegoatgod_pan]

What is wrong with end game balance? It is the same as the rest of the game, you buff for the enemies and roll through them like a hot knife through butter, or you don't buff, or buff wrong and bounce off hard.

[Biowraith]

My understanding is that the end game spawns are a) balanced to be of a challenge rating appropriate for a level 20(+?) group when in reality the player is likely to be in the level 14-17 range and b) require a very specific buff that if you haven't googled ahead you may not know you'll need.

Also, if you haven't googled ahead you'll probably not realise exactly how vital it is not just to complete the companion quests but to complete them with the correct choices/results (or to go full merc), not to mention if you're roleplaying those 'correct' choices may not fit your character at all.

In my case I knew about the over-tuning of the spawns and I knew about the specific buff, but despite doing 95% of the side quests I'd encountered was only level 15 when I got there.  I wasn't aware of the companion element so my earlier choices (which in 2 cases were affected by bugs or design oversights - Harrim and Amiri) meant my level 15 party only had 2 companions available, one of which I hadn't been using so was underequipped, and neither of which was the character with that specific buff.  Needless to say, after 60-70 hours of playing that particular playthrough hit a brick wall and was pretty much unsalvageable (at least, not without some heavy save game editing).

The main difference compared with the rest of the game is you're no longer in a position to go back and change things to take a different approach, and you can't just go level up and try again later the way you can with earlier over-tuned mobs (and even if I'd had a save pre-portal, the decisions that would strip me of my party post-portal went back much much further).

I'd been enjoying the game up to that point despite earlier bug and balance wobbles, but I'm finding it hard to motivate myself to start over knowing how it is/was designed (even now I know the specific path required to avoid most of that).

(edit: and slapping a 50% spellcasting fail environmental effect on top of all that was the last straw for me, that's where I gave up trying to persevere with my level 15 group of 2.5 characters)

[Flying Dice]

Started playing again now that the EE is out.

Gotta say, something is really fucky about exp gains. My level 4-5 party just got a CR11 ambush of 9x Large Fire Elemental. So far so good. Except that when they went down, it was fucking 45 exp per kill per character. Per RAW it should be ~267 exp per kill per character. Even if exp share further splits exp gains (which IIRC it does, and good luck using the crappy prebuild characters to play or to govern if you don't feed them exp), I only have ~6 active right now, so exp shouldn't be a scant ~16% of what it ought to be.

[ChairmanPoo]

Rise from your grave!

So, I've been playing this again. I still find the voice acting and writing narmy (though TBH no narmier than BG2) and some mechanics are still eh.  But I find it has improved a lot since I first played it. I'm finding some stuff quite cool to play. In particular:
-Sylvan sorcerer: (I dropped this for now because I decided that the permapet was good but kind of a liability in some scenarios)
-vivisectionist 1/arcane trickster 10/conjurer rest. Beam sneak attacker, with the feature than he can achieve a flank by himself by spamming summoning spells. This is kind of my rethought sylvan. Could conceivably be a sorc rather than a wizard I guess. (Maybe abyssal for the summon bonus? Odds are you wont get the second bonus unless you cut down AT levels to 4, but THAT gimps the sneak attack)
- Vivisectionist19/monk(or scaled)1  This is what I'm currently playing. Supposed to be very strong with mutagens and sneak attack. Going dor a dex build with finesse so it can be either melee or ranged. And thematically I like it (a warrior monk with a sideline of alchemy and self mummification feats? It has a necromonger vibe. You can be the Holy Half-Dead :p )

[Wiles]

So, I've been playing this again. I still find the voice acting and writing narmy (though TBH no narmier than BG2)

Yeah. I think fantasy RPGs just have lackluster writing in general.

I picked this up during the steam sale, and I've been having a lot of fun with it. It feels a bit "old school" in its design, in good ways (doesn't hold your hand, exploring is worthwhile and dangerous) and bad ways (if you don't know the d20 system well some things can feel pretty obtuse, and the inventory management is chore).

[ChairmanPoo]

So, I've been playing this again. I still find the voice acting and writing narmy (though TBH no narmier than BG2)

Yeah. I think fantasy RPGs just have lackluster writing in general.

 

🤷‍♂️ I dont think its universal. PoE I&II, Planescape:Torment, Witcher III, all had good writing. I heard Hordes of the Underdark and Mask of the Betrayer did too, though I did not get to play through them yet. Dragonfall wasnt exactly my can of beans but it was decently written...
In many ways, Kingmaker feels narmy in the same way NWN1 felt narmy. It... kind of needs it's own MOTB. I havent played through all of KM yet though. My major beef is... the interaction with my companions. I find most of them, and their banter, obnoxious. Jaethal is one of the least annoying ones but even she has her moments. Linzi is REALLY annoying. And Valerie and Amiri annoy me every time they open their mouths.

[Majestic7]

Isn't the computer game based on the Pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path? So most of the bad writing comes from Paizo.

[Kagus]

I still find the voice acting and writing narmy (though TBH no narmier than BG2)

     


What the fuck happened to "Do no harm" Doc?!

[ChairmanPoo]

Without going fully into the subject: BG2 had some really damn good sidequests. Main story was a bit wanting (I simply didnt feel the pressure... Kingmaker did that much right... and the sidequests were more interesting).  And, eh characterization, writing and voice acting was also better in sidequests than in MC.  I mean, Jaheira was hitting on you as soon as you left Irenicus' prison (I dont think she should have been a romance option at all)  and some of the exchanges ... like the final exchange between Irenicus and Queen whatshername... eh. I'll grant you the MC could have been a lot better. There is a seed of something better there

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I dont think they should have bent to public pressure in sparing Imoen. Killing her off would have made it more obvious that during your visions neither Imoen nor Irenicus are really whom they seem to be

- Vivisectionist19/monk(or scaled)1  This is what I'm currently playing. Supposed to be very strong with mutagens and sneak attack. Going dor a dex build with finesse so it can be either melee or ranged. And thematically I like it (a warrior monk with a sideline of alchemy and self mummification feats? It has a necromonger vibe. You can be the Holy Half-Dead :p )

I've been playing this and I can confirm that with one scaled fist dip you're pretty kick ass. And if you quaff down the mutagen you become a killing machine. I'm regretting not naming my character Paul Muad'Dib

I'm thinking on respeccing him though. I have this idea about how maybe, just maybe, I can actually get better AC with one level of fighter and heavy armor, which according to some reports doesnt interfere with alchemist spells. I'd break even as far as the number of feats are concerned (imp unarmed strike instead of finesse) and I could still get the crane line of feats, which would be usable because unlike a regular fighter I'd be using Quen sign the shield spell instead of a regular shield to improve my AC

[BlackFlyme]

Didn't notice the Enhanced Edition for a little while, until I checked my Steam downloads and found a hefty update waiting for me.

Wasn't expecting Slayer as a new free class.

Isn't the computer game based on the Pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path? So most of the bad writing comes from Paizo.

Eh, yes and no. The original Kingmaker is a bit notorious for not having much of a story in the first place, and Owlcat made a number of additions to have it make a bit more sense. That Fey are involved at all is something of a last minute reveal.

The NPCs are also a bit different. Some are new, while others seem to have been written out almost entirely. I think the only companion that's also in the Adventure Path is Jubilost, and the only other companion that also exists in Pathfinder is Amiri, who is the Iconic Barbarian.

Paizo is doing a 10th anniversary reprint of the adventure path for both Pathfinder 2e and D&D 5e, and are actually incorporating some of the game's changes.

[ChairmanPoo]

So the vivisectionist actually works very well, but IDK... there are some things about the gameplay that I dont like. I'm going to try a beam vivi/arcane trickster. But I've not decided whether to go for sorcerer or wizard yet as a base (or rogue or vivi as the backstab providing class). Any input?

Edit: bleh.. I cant quite get to dump my kwisatch haderach build. Its just too uber.
I'd kind of like to try alternate builds using heavy armor and str, or use an alternate pure vivi build. But the KH is so beautiful in its simplicity that I can't be arsed to try alternative builds atm: just add on buffs (prioritizing AC but without overlooking energy and saves... remember... fear is the mind killer), get someone to flank, and punchinate the bastards to death.  Most trashmobs wont even need lots of debuffs so save the mutagen for long areas snd/or bosses.

[Cthulhu]

My understanding is that the end game spawns are a) balanced to be of a challenge rating appropriate for a level 20(+?) group when in reality the player is likely to be in the level 14-17 range and b) require a very specific buff that if you haven't googled ahead you may not know you'll need.

Also, if you haven't googled ahead you'll probably not realise exactly how vital it is not just to complete the companion quests but to complete them with the correct choices/results (or to go full merc), not to mention if you're roleplaying those 'correct' choices may not fit your character at all.

In my case I knew about the over-tuning of the spawns and I knew about the specific buff, but despite doing 95% of the side quests I'd encountered was only level 15 when I got there.  I wasn't aware of the companion element so my earlier choices (which in 2 cases were affected by bugs or design oversights - Harrim and Amiri) meant my level 15 party only had 2 companions available, one of which I hadn't been using so was underequipped, and neither of which was the character with that specific buff.  Needless to say, after 60-70 hours of playing that particular playthrough hit a brick wall and was pretty much unsalvageable (at least, not without some heavy save game editing).

The main difference compared with the rest of the game is you're no longer in a position to go back and change things to take a different approach, and you can't just go level up and try again later the way you can with earlier over-tuned mobs (and even if I'd had a save pre-portal, the decisions that would strip me of my party post-portal went back much much further).

I'd been enjoying the game up to that point despite earlier bug and balance wobbles, but I'm finding it hard to motivate myself to start over knowing how it is/was designed (even now I know the specific path required to avoid most of that).

(edit: and slapping a 50% spellcasting fail environmental effect on top of all that was the last straw for me, that's where I gave up trying to persevere with my level 15 group of 2.5 characters)

hey man, trap options you realize way too late have made your character unplayable are just the devs showing their dedication to pathfinder

I still feel like the only D&D-style CRPG that really hit home for me has been Temple of Elemental Evil.  It needs extensive modding to work because Troika didn't know how to make video games, but it's so damn good.  Kingmaker lost my interest a few hours in, where I felt like I wasn't strong enough to do any of the storyline content and what was available was just wandering around clicking on thylacines.  Sword Saint class is pretty cool though.

[Biowraith]

hey man, trap options you realize way too late have made your character unplayable are just the devs showing their dedication to pathfinder

Heh.

I had been thinking I should go back and have another go now that my saltiness has had time to fade (somewhat), but I have a backlog of other games that keeps pushing that back (and I have no idea if any of my complaints have been resolved since 2018 or if I'll just need to break out google for another attempt).