Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Civilisation Goals  (Read 1684 times)

Radircs

  • Escaped Lunatic
    • View Profile
Civilisation Goals
« on: June 12, 2017, 04:09:10 pm »

I finally find the time for myself to start a fortress again. But this time I want to give it like a purpose/theme to get some challenge in. So I create a new world and brows like an hour or more through the Legends to find a good civilization for my idea I have for roleplay in mind. And I notice that the different Dwarf's all expanded and act similarly. Ther are not mutch differently in the expansion. So why we dont change it and give them a bit more diversity? Give a Civ a goal or more like a culture imprint if you want to call it this way. Are they more likely to do trading? Or are they going for wold domination? or just want to be traditional and keep their gates close and the Mountain Homes close together? I know this would need a rewrite of the World gen and will not happen soon anytime but I would like to know what other people think about this idea.
Logged

FantasticDorf

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2017, 11:55:22 am »

Well right now the closest direction to this is the current personality of the civilisation leader & also independent leaders who each have their own ambitions. Outside this group of people, the civ cannot function under normal circumstances in picking its targets to attack (besides trade & diplomacy, most monarch activities are pointing out targets to attack, so a greater amount of power for a monarch in making decisions outside of military matters is welcome.

More in line with what you're saying, it'd be nice if civilisations got a secondary civ goal like you describe that can be influenced, helped & hindered and will change the outcome of the citizens values ever so slightly if they are achieved or denied. A civilisation on the brim of extinction for instance will give its citizens xenophobic or self preservationist/co-operative values so they can hold on longer and the next generation of monarch born into those values will have different outlooks to their predecessors outside of the normal RNG roll.

You could say its the civ's official declared policy of what they are going to do, goblins most certainly will be to conquer the world unless they depose their demon master, and keep a more moderate leader in check for a extended period of time (assuming they aren't assassinated or die of old age)

For instance humans are very variable creatures so their civ objective might be as random as establish a theocracy around a object of worship for instance (from very religious centric civs), colonise or roam around looking for artifact items (wandering & greed). [POWER] tag creatures are often cruel so will sieze power forcefully and warp the goals of otherwise generally peaceful civilisations into warfare as you might expect a monster to, giants demand tribute because of their immense greed, and minotaurs recklessly order armies to slay & raze every settlement they can find.
Logged

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2017, 12:43:57 am »

You might want to look up the development roadmap, and search "starting scenarios". 

Not only does Toady want to make it so that there are in-game goals for your fortress that affect game mechanics (I.E. your fortress is a military outpost, so you will get more dwarves that have military skills, and migrants won't be so scared of dead dwarves, but your fortress will suffer more sieges) but he's also listed it as one of the things he wants to do "relatively soon". 
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Bumber

  • Bay Watcher
  • REMOVE KOBOLD
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2017, 12:52:28 am »

@NW_Kohaku
This thread is about whole civilizations, not just player forts. There's more involvement with the world gen, and less to do with the player.
Logged
Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2017, 01:23:59 am »

@NW_Kohaku
This thread is about whole civilizations, not just player forts. There's more involvement with the world gen, and less to do with the player.

Ah, I suppose that's a bit different...  I was thinking from the "role playing" part it meant things more specific to the player. 

Well, in that case, there is the desire to make different entities act differently, but it's also a combination of what individual rulers have as their individual goals, as well as the values of the culture, as well.  (Such that a king might be really expansionistic, but his son will be more focused upon internal politics.  An entity as a whole might be really pacifistic, but have one ruler that springs up that tries to conquer the world by force, and there may be some internal divisions in play if not everyone in the entity is happy with that dramatic break from the norms of their culture.) 

To that end, I think that the individual goals, as well as the cultural values of whole entities are both existing mechanics that can express what the OP talks about, but could use more fleshing out.  (Humans, in particular, since they have the bounded randomized values for their cultural values.) 

At least, rather than "suggesting something new", it would make more sense to suggest expansions to the existing system to make them more impactful and meaningful.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2017, 04:24:28 am »

And combining personal ambitions with civs understanding of property rights (also coming in Starting Scenarios update) and I think you've got a good variety of natural ways for civs to set themselves dynamic goals without having to assign them specifically. Also internal politics, I guess. Pacifist king, but power hungry lords bordering meek elves should lead to some limited expansionism.
Logged

SixOfSpades

  • Bay Watcher
  • likes flesh balls for their calming roundness
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2017, 12:39:18 am »

A better (read: any) use of religion would add much potential here. A monarch, other lord, or especially priest, might seek to introduce religious reform, elevate one god over another, cause a schism within the clergy, adopt a god from a different civilization, etc. We could have dwarf versions of the Spanish Inquisition, Protestant Reformation, or (for you GoT fans) Baelor the Blessed.
Logged
Dwarf Fortress -- kind of like Minecraft, but for people who hate themselves.

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2017, 01:10:13 am »

Oh yes, religion for sure. It already causes wars in the very limited way we have now. Just ask around and eventually you'll find mayors and such complaining about tensions with their godless neighbors and threatening to do something about it soon.
Logged

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2017, 01:42:53 am »

A better (read: any) use of religion would add much potential here. A monarch, other lord, or especially priest, might seek to introduce religious reform, elevate one god over another, cause a schism within the clergy, adopt a god from a different civilization, etc. We could have dwarf versions of the Spanish Inquisition, Protestant Reformation, or (for you GoT fans) Baelor the Blessed.

Akhenaten would be a more fitting "heretical king" for a polytheistic game than the Christian examples, having declared the whole rest of the pantheon but the sun god false.

Oh yes, religion for sure. It already causes wars in the very limited way we have now. Just ask around and eventually you'll find mayors and such complaining about tensions with their godless neighbors and threatening to do something about it soon.

As much as I love me some Crusader Kings, I think there's a bit too much confusion of causation and correlation with regards to whether culture or religion causes friction.  I.E. Religious tensions are often a pretext for cultural tensions.  (Say, the Great Schism dividing Roman Catholic from Greek Orthodox versions of Christianity being over fairly minor differences in actual doctrine, and instead being over the cultural divide between the Greek Byzantine Empire and Western Europe.)

Granted, it's different when the gods are physical beings who can dictate their will verbally to their followers and lead them to battle in person, but I'd hope there would be some more interplay between culture shaping and changing religion as much as religion shapes culture.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

FantasticDorf

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2017, 02:25:18 pm »

Well gods change all of the time as foreign & new fangled ones come into fashion so it'd probably be inner conflict within the wheels & gears of the kingdom being the guilds, religious installations and the military industro complex (if you can really call 14th century military aristocracy that) to stick their oar in to decide & bargain with the leader's attention and ambition.

Pull a Henry the 8th as variable human civ and denounce the parent civilisations religion because your kingdom/fiefdom's values are different, and hence set up a counter church that will probably create that culture & friction by chasing & repossessing all the old monks & prophets out of town like a vampire purge. Sets up a nice historical narrative in the long run.

You can all worship the same god, but it matters politically if you use the right outlet to worship them as per your beliefs. Catholicism & protestant league esque shenanigans for a realm in crisis, then of course there's the occasional coup. You could describe dwarven society to be a bit like guild centric communism without a fixed economy in contrast to some other race like humans that ask you put down a economic payment to build that wall instead of just doing it for free, bills to pay in tithes and all that.

Logged

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2017, 04:58:43 pm »

Well, it doesn't even have to be that overt.  For example, in spite of the name, the Catholic Church has numerous orders that argue that the church go in different directions, without being overt splinter groups or heresies.  The ascendance of Pope Francis (so named because he's of the Franciscan order) was a shift in power between the two major directions the church was being pulled in, between tradition and reform.  As an extension, it's not exactly like modern Christians are burning children in the village square for being The Devil anymore, either.  Morphing of the actual meaning of religion according to the context of the culture it exists in needs to be part of it.   

Beyond that, look up the Papacy in the Middle Ages, and see all the politics played over who became Pope, and how French and Spanish Kings and German Kaisers vied for control, and it doesn't take anything so dramatic as a Protestant reformation to have significant stories about religious organization power struggles. 

So far as "military industro complex" goes, that would be the armies, themselves.  I really need to get around to writing that thread about how coinage causes slavery...
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

LucasEobrican

  • Escaped Lunatic
  • Iso olut, kiitos.
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 11:55:31 am »

Goal: Liberation of the Proletariat.
Logged
Kahvi

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Civilisation Goals
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2017, 09:24:55 pm »

Goal: Liberation of the Proletariat.

You might as well expand that to a more general "evangelize political/religious faction beliefs".
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare