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[Goldbeard]

So I'm going to need a 50 z-level pump stack to bring water from the caverns to my hospital.  So far so good, but that's a lot of doors using the standard design.  (While I could make them, they would slow me down on something I need up quick.)

Wiki says "use ramps in place of channeling" to minimize doors and access tunnels.  For some reason I'm having a hard time visualizing this.

To be sure I'm understanding it: I would designate a ramp up underneath each tile that would normally be channeled out in a pump stack, correct?  So a 4-z side view of the middle of the stack would go:

0^M^
^M^0
0^M^
^M^0

where ^ = Up Ramp, M = mine, and 0 is an undesignated block that I would otherwise mine, but here I'm leaving to the mercy of the ramp up below it.  And the pumps are built so the input tiles go on the inward ramp and the output tiles go on the only (designated) Mined tile.  This arrangement comes out equal to channeling out tiles as in the basic description and the animation?

And a secondary question, since I realized I've been using stairs for up/down travel from the very beginning, with ramps only for the trade depot entrance.  What are your layouts for, say, a central staircase using only ramps?  Or for bedroom complexes using ramps?

[Thisfox]

And a secondary question, since I realized I've been using stairs for up/down travel from the very beginning, with ramps only for the trade depot entrance.  What are your layouts for, say, a central staircase using only ramps?  Or for bedroom complexes using ramps?

I've now got this mental image of a wheelchair-accessible fort. I mean, I often have dorfs stomping around on lead-and-gold crutches....

I figure you make a spiral ramp, down the centre, and just make bedroom complexes hanging off the spiral in the centre. But, then, I like a central staircase.

My water techniques tend to involve embarking in an aquifer, so I've always got the simple method of tapping the aquifer to fill the hospital well, but a way of avoiding the pumpstack routine would be to designate the well cistern as a "pond" and make a bucket parade. Dorf bucket parades fill things surprisingly quickly.

[Goldbeard]

I figure you make a spiral ramp, down the centre, and just make bedroom complexes hanging off the spiral in the centre. But, then, I like a central staircase.

This is terrible, but I'm saying I don't even know what the layout of a spiraling ramp would be.  I'm having trouble picturing where the solid column goes so dwarfs can walk out on it.

My water techniques tend to involve embarking in an aquifer, so I've always got the simple method of tapping the aquifer to fill the hospital well, but a way of avoiding the pumpstack routine would be to designate the well cistern as a "pond" and make a bucket parade. Dorf bucket parades fill things surprisingly quickly.

Didn't even think of buckets.  I may try it, though I then need to give some more thought to security in the cavern.  Is a well on the starting end going to slow things down?

Edit:  also, as I understand it, I'd be getting murky water out of cavern pools, correct?  I'd rather purify via screw pump, though I suppose I could have a staging and a final cistern.

[Loci]

So I'm going to need a 50 z-level pump stack to bring water from the caverns to my hospital.  So far so good, but that's a lot of doors using the standard design.  (While I could make them, they would slow me down on something I need up quick.)

Just so you know, you could use a well to raise the water 50 z-levels and skip the pump stack entirely.

Wiki says "use ramps in place of channeling" to minimize doors and access tunnels.  For some reason I'm having a hard time visualizing this.

That's probably because it's nonsensical advice. "Ramps" and "Channeling" both produce the same result in unmined tiles--a ramp with an "open space" tile above. Even if we "clarify" the advice to ""use ramps in place of digging-then-channeling", the net result is a number of initially-unusable ramps eventually providing access to tiles that shouldn't require any access and a number of potentially-usable temporary ramps providing duplicate access to your stack until you actually build pumps.

The best way to minimize doors and access tunnels is just to minimize doors and access tunnels. You don't need a door or access tunnel to the "output" tile of a pump, and you don't need a door on the access tunnel to the input side of the pump either. For a "minimal" setup, dig out an access stairway two tiles north of the "operator's tile" of one pump, then dig out the tile directly north of the operator's tile of each pump.

That being said, a ramp in the output tile may be useful for preventing tree growth and rescuing dwarves that somehow manage to fall in. You can create that ramp by either designating channeling on the upper z-level or designating a ramp on the lower z-level. I wouldn't bother with the temporary ramps in the middle of the stack though; just mine those tiles then channel away the floor when you are ready to install the pumps.

And a secondary question, since I realized I've been using stairs for up/down travel from the very beginning, with ramps only for the trade depot entrance.

While some people like to claim that ramps are more efficient (and, under some particularly contrived circumstances they may be), the reality is that stairs perform equivalently in most cases. The choice of stairs or ramps is primarily player preference.

[Thisfox]

This is a bit of an experiment, I suspect kerning will make it a nightmare, but here's an attempt to explain what I mean about a spiral ramp instead of a spiral staircase:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

.  = open space
+ = floor
^  = up ramp
v  = down ramp
X = solid wall


Level -1:

. . ^
. . +
. . v

Level -2 (under level -1)
. . X
. . X
v+^

Level -3 (under level -2)
v . .
+. .
^XX

Level -4 (under level -3)

^+v
X . .
X . .

And then repeat. Level -5 will be the same as level -1.

This has the added bonus (or perhaps disadvantage?) of having a hollow shaft down the centre. Great for when someone looses their footing.... and falls 50z to splash at the bottom. Um. Perhaps putting a few walls down the centre might be safer. Oh well.

[Goldbeard]

Just so you know, you could use a well to raise the water 50 z-levels and skip the pump stack entirely.

I think I've decided to do it the hard way.     I've got some horizontal distance to cover as well, and I'd like a cistern full while I'm at it.

That's probably because it's nonsensical advice. "Ramps" and "Channeling" both produce the same result in unmined tiles--a ramp with an "open space" tile above. Even if we "clarify" the advice to ""use ramps in place of digging-then-channeling", the net result is a number of initially-unusable ramps eventually providing access to tiles that shouldn't require any access and a number of potentially-usable temporary ramps providing duplicate access to your stack until you actually build pumps.

The best way to minimize doors and access tunnels is just to minimize doors and access tunnels. You don't need a door or access tunnel to the "output" tile of a pump, and you don't need a door on the access tunnel to the input side of the pump either. For a "minimal" setup, dig out an access stairway two tiles north of the "operator's tile" of one pump, then dig out the tile directly north of the operator's tile of each pump.

Okay, that helps.  I was thinking there was some deeper meaning I wasn't understanding.

This is a bit of an experiment, I suspect kerning will make it a nightmare, but here's an attempt to explain what I mean about a spiral ramp instead of a spiral staircase:

That helps, thanks.  Like I say, I'm just not used to thinking in ramps.

This has the added bonus (or perhaps disadvantage?) of having a hollow shaft down the centre. Great for when someone looses their footing.... and falls 50z to splash at the bottom. Um. Perhaps putting a few walls down the centre might be safer. Oh well.

Waterfall down the center!

I may even try that down my central staircase.  It'll be a hassle with my current layout, but I'm hassling already so what the heck.

[Goldbeard]

Okay, more thinking out loud.  Designating Up Ramps is actually useful only to minimize a second pass designating channeling later?  But that's about the only point, and it's at the cost of fiddlier designation up front.

So here's a pump stack layout that's fiddly to designate but has a minimum amount of mining:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

^ = up ramp
. = mined stone
X = untouched stone

Level -1
X^.^XX
XXX^XX

Level -2:
XX^.^X
XX^XXX

If level -1 pumps left and -2 pumps right that puts the output side above the input side for power transfer.  Up ramps on the side zig zag up and down for access, and each one has a wall beneath it so no dwarfs should get stuck.  Am I missing anything?

[Loci]

Up ramps on the side zig zag up and down for access, and each one has a wall beneath it so no dwarfs should get stuck.  Am I missing anything?

Nice try, but you can't "zig zag" ramps like that.

Usable slopes require 4 tiles:

1) a ramp tile
2) an open space tile above the ramp tile
3) a "solid" tile next to the ramp tile
4) a "walkable" tile above a "solid" tile next to the ramp tile

When you try to reverse direction on a ramp, the open space tile for the lower ramp and the "solid" tile for the upper ramp are the exact same tile, so at least one of the ramps is guaranteed to be unusable.
 
Also, since liquids flow diagonally, your unusable access ramps will leak (though that may not be a serious problem).

You may be able to use a tight 4-tile spiral ramp instead of your zig zag and save 1/2 tile per level over the access stairway design, though it will still leak.

[Madrigal]

... I don't even know what the layout of a spiraling ramp would be.  I'm having trouble picturing where the solid column goes so dwarfs can walk out on it.

I remember Dame de la Licorne built a lovely central ramp dual-spiral in The Story of Atolasob. There's a set of pictures of successive z-levels about halfway through this post:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159096.msg7311088#msg7311088

[anewaname]

So here's a pump stack layout that's fiddly to designate but has a minimum amount of mining:

Whatever you work out, you should be able to make a macro that designates the needed digging on the two levels and then moves into position for the next digging, so then all the fiddlyness is just a fast set of macro'ing. You could make another throw-away macro for all the pump builds if you aren't worried about what materials are used.

[Goldbeard]

Nice try, but you can't "zig zag" ramps like that.

Usable slopes require 4 tiles:

1) a ramp tile
2) an open space tile above the ramp tile
3) a "solid" tile next to the ramp tile
4) a "walkable" tile above a "solid" tile next to the ramp tile

When you try to reverse direction on a ramp, the open space tile for the lower ramp and the "solid" tile for the upper ramp are the exact same tile, so at least one of the ramps is guaranteed to be unusable.
 
Also, since liquids flow diagonally, your unusable access ramps will leak (though that may not be a serious problem).

You may be able to use a tight 4-tile spiral ramp instead of your zig zag and save 1/2 tile per level over the access stairway design, though it will still leak.

Doh!  Well, just extend that side tile out one.  Then I went with a double up/down staircase as being tighter than 4 tiles.  It's just I had ramps on the brain at the time.

I remember Dame de la Licorne built a lovely central ramp dual-spiral in The Story of Atolasob. There's a set of pictures of successive z-levels about halfway through this post:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=159096.msg7311088#msg7311088

That's neat.  I would never have come up with that.

Whatever you work out, you should be able to make a macro that designates the needed digging on the two levels and then moves into position for the next digging, so then all the fiddlyness is just a fast set of macro'ing. You could make another throw-away macro for all the pump builds if you aren't worried about what materials are used.

I should probably figure out macros one of these days, but having started the hard way I'm now tolerably quick at it.

[anewaname]

I should probably figure out macros one of these days, but having started the hard way I'm now tolerably quick at it.

Macros are worth figuring out. Just do the "Ctrl+r" to start recording, do some series of steps, then "Ctrl+r" to stop recording, then "Ctrl+p" to play it several times. An easy place to start is with trading, to mark lots of stuff fast.

[Goldbeard]

Macros are worth figuring out. ...[/quote]

Oh, hey.  Yes they are.  That is extraordinarily useful at times.  Guess I should stop doing everything the hard way (though in some fairness, I'd have never found that just from looking in DF).

I'm getting soft, though.  Next thing you know I'll be labeling my levers!

[Fleeting Frames]

While some people like to claim that ramps are more efficient (and, under some particularly contrived circumstances they may be), the reality is that stairs perform equivalently in most cases. The choice of stairs or ramps is primarily player preference.

This is terrible, but I'm saying I don't even know what the layout of a spiraling ramp would be.  I'm having trouble picturing where the solid column goes so dwarfs can walk out on it.

To slightly elaborate on this tangent:

Ramps are primarily more efficient when you traverse sideways/diagonally and down/upwards at same time (there's also suggestion of them saving pathfinding time, but eh haven't tested it).

Ramps are space-inefficient for travelling straight up/down, such as with a staircase. Off-hand, I'd always call 3x1 stairway design matching or beating any 3x3 descending rampway in throughput and shortest walking distances without calculating.

I cannot truly recommend trying to optimize your fortress via central rampway*, but for a quick thing I can recommend offsetting your magma workshops so that the ramps inside the smelter on lower level will pass straight into forge offset z and y level to above.


* To match or beat staircases in efficiency with ramps, you have to descend sideways - on the plus side, up to four sides there, but mind the wall and traversable squares. It's an interesting problem to optimize, but as staircases are used relatively infrequently compared to jobs the time you spend planning and designating outweights the time you save on waiting on dorfs, even if you manage to cut the living-workshop distance in half, to use vastly-better-than-possible example (you'll probably save just a tile or two, unless you screw up with impassable squares, forcing the dwarves to make a detour or perhaps starve).