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Author Topic: Outer Colony  (Read 66715 times)

deMangler

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #165 on: December 14, 2017, 02:49:57 pm »

Possibly useful information.
My Documents folder in windows is located on a drive other than my system drive. This is because my system drive is a fast but very small SSD.
All my other software plays nice and uses the correct location but Outer Colony still puts the save files in my system drive. I think it is because they are in  */user/ rather than in */user/Documents/My Games/Outer Colony or somesuch.
Anyway - no biggie but just a headsup.
:)
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VoyagerGames

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #166 on: December 27, 2017, 04:23:58 pm »

Alright guys, I've got a few days off from my regular job and should be able to get a good chunk of Outer Colony work done over the next few days. Having brought some new contributors onto the project, we're considering overhauling some of Outer Colony's existing functionality and generally simplifying some aspects of the game to make it more approachable and fun. I'm going to be asking for the opinions of current testers here, as I think you guys will be a great help in making some of the important decisions about OC's design moving forward.

Before I post a more significant update, I'll just reply to a few of the earlier posts in the thread:

Quote
I have a problem trying to play Outer Colony.

Hi, Viken, and thanks for the report. Your PC's hardware should be more than adequate for generating anything except the hugest worlds, so there might be some kind of bug going on there. In the meantime, you can choose a smaller world size for generation, and that should solve your problem.

Possibly useful information.
My Documents folder in windows is located on a drive other than my system drive. This is because my system drive is a fast but very small SSD.
All my other software plays nice and uses the correct location but Outer Colony still puts the save files in my system drive. I think it is because they are in  */user/ rather than in */user/Documents/My Games/Outer Colony or somesuch.
Anyway - no biggie but just a headsup.
:)

Good report, man. This is an artifact of the way Outer Colony is currently programmed: in Java, without any Windows-specific logic. I currently use an OS-independent location for storing saves and other files, but it may be worthwhile to write some code to put things in Documents/My Games/ folder for Windows.

I hope everybody's having a solid holiday season!
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se5a

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #167 on: December 27, 2017, 08:59:46 pm »

did you have any more ideas on the problem I'm having getting it running in linux?
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VoyagerGames

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #168 on: December 27, 2017, 11:24:25 pm »

did you have any more ideas on the problem I'm having getting it running in linux?

I took a brief look at it this evening, and I'm semi-stumped. My first thought was that the more recent .jar I had distributed was borked, but I cracked the thing open, and there was the right manifest, describing the correctly-qualified main class. Then I went to find the main class, and there it was, precisely where it was supposed to be.

I'm sure that you're using the correct command to try to launch the game, but could you post what you're running from the command line? I'm pretty sure this is the ticket:
Quote
java -jar OuterColony.jar -Xmx8192M
And I think it's worked for our other users.

Re-reading your earlier post, you're actually 100% correct:
Quote
Cool, it's a tricky one since as I understanding it it's Java itself failing to find the main class from the manifest, so its finding the manifest, but the program never really starts.

That's spot-on. Java is launching, so you've got it installed, it's finding the .jar, cracking it open, and reading the manifest, but is then bursting into flames because it can't find the main class. But why? What's really strange is that everything looks like it's in place. What's even stranger is that it seems like it works for other people. I'll have to dig into this a little harder to get you a better answer, and I'm really sorry I couldn't come up with anything tonight. I don't have a spare Linux machine lying around at the moment to perform even the most rudimentary testing, which is a big part of the reason why I can't formally support Linux yet.

If I can find time, I'll try to load Ubuntu onto a VM and see if I can't get to the bottom of this, but I have to take care of a whole bunch of other things before I can take a harder crack at solving this issue.

Quote
If you're going to look at a linux installer, I'd maybe look at Flatpak... 
And I meant to respond to this when I saw it, but totally spaced on it! Flatpak is awesome, but I've actually got a highly-polished solution for building a Java installer for Linux. Thanks to the righteous guys at ej-technologies, I'm using install4j to handle installation and auto-updating across Windows, Linux, and Mac. A Linux installer could technically exist with just a few hours worth of work, but I just don't have a platform to test it with yet, and that's a big part of what's standing in the way of supporting Linux and Mac.

If you're curious about the technicals of OC's cross-platform installer and auto-update system, you can read a blog entry I wrote about it here: https://voyagergames.com/distributing-a-desktop-java-application/

Thanks for your patience, and sorry again that I couldn't come up with an answer tonight. In the short-term, maybe one of the other Linux users can hop on this thread and lend a hand. They might've done something else I failed to mention in order to make everything work.
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se5a

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #169 on: December 28, 2017, 02:18:15 am »

java -jar OuterColony.jar -Xmx8192M

Yeah that's exactly what I tired, and anything else I could think of too.
No worries, thanks for looking at it, I'm as much intrigued as to why it isn't working, as checking out the game itself now.
yeah hopefully one of the other linux users may have an idea. I'm stumped for sure.

installing ubuntu on a vm should be straight forward, the worst bit is waiting for the iso to download.
I read your blog entry on the installer and auto updater sounds nifty. having a VM will allow you to test that too.
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feelotraveller

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #170 on: December 28, 2017, 04:53:23 am »

Okay, I've been lurking and watching this game with interest.  Bit worried about it being a time sink so I've been patient...  ;)

Being on Linux myself got curious so I had a look and also encountered this problem, and I have half an answer (for myself at least, and maybe for others?).  I too was getting the
Code: [Select]
Error: Could not find or load main class com.voyagergames.tfr.TFRApplication
and spent some time internet searching and puzzling over classpaths and other things I do not understand very well... until I stumbled upon a fruitful java command line option -Xdiag.  This quickly led to the problem pointing at JavaFX.  Now this was somewhat familiar territory as I'd had similar problems in the past and led to me to install OpenJFX  (java-openjfx on arch based distros).  And hey presto Outer Colony launches.  :)  [JavaFX is included in Java 8 but not in OpenJDK...]

Unfortunately it is only half a solution since as far as I can tell I have no sound in the game.  But it is a decent half-solution since (as far as a couple of quick click-throughs show, world creation, embarking) the game seems totally playable, bearing in mind its development state.  Oh and since I had that command line switch, have some terminal feedback.  Perhaps someone else can take it a bit further as I cannot do anything more for a couple of weeks.  Happy trails peoples.  :D

Code: [Select]
java -jar OuterColony.jar -Xmx8192M
Exception in thread "JavaFX Application Thread" MediaException: UNKNOWN : com.sun.media.jfxmedia.MediaException: Could not create player! : com.sun.media.jfxmedia.MediaException: Could not create player!
at javafx.scene.media.MediaException.exceptionToMediaException(MediaException.java:146)
at javafx.scene.media.MediaPlayer.init(MediaPlayer.java:511)
at javafx.scene.media.MediaPlayer.<init>(MediaPlayer.java:414)
at com.voyagergames.tfr.audio.AudioManager$4.run(AudioManager.java:519)
at com.sun.javafx.application.PlatformImpl.lambda$null$5(PlatformImpl.java:295)
at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
at com.sun.javafx.application.PlatformImpl.lambda$runLater$6(PlatformImpl.java:294)
at com.sun.glass.ui.InvokeLaterDispatcher$Future.run(InvokeLaterDispatcher.java:95)
at com.sun.glass.ui.gtk.GtkApplication._runLoop(Native Method)
at com.sun.glass.ui.gtk.GtkApplication.lambda$null$5(GtkApplication.java:139)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:748)
Caused by: com.sun.media.jfxmedia.MediaException: Could not create player!
at com.sun.media.jfxmediaimpl.NativeMediaManager.getPlayer(NativeMediaManager.java:274)
at com.sun.media.jfxmedia.MediaManager.getPlayer(MediaManager.java:118)
at javafx.scene.media.MediaPlayer.init(MediaPlayer.java:467)
... 9 more
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #171 on: December 28, 2017, 05:00:19 am »

Gtk mp3 decoder missing?there was a separate package fir it due licensing
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feelotraveller

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #172 on: December 28, 2017, 05:40:26 am »

 8)  That was what I was missing.  Installing ffmpeg2.8 did the trick.  Complete solution locally.  :)  Many thanks.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #173 on: December 28, 2017, 08:12:27 am »

best solution in general would be to use ogg in linux builds. been there, people won't read popups explaining to install stuff and unless a packaged build is used for dependencies better to go for safer defaults
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se5a

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #174 on: December 28, 2017, 01:58:21 pm »

oh wow, nice catch feeltraveller, that did it.
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VoyagerGames

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #175 on: December 29, 2017, 12:08:39 pm »

Huge thanks to the Linux experts for these latest posts. I should've figured it was something about the JRE, and this is the biggest reason why Outer Colony's installer bundles its own local version of Java instead of relying on what users happen to have installed on their machines. I'll address the Linux matters a bit further soon, but for now, I'd like to share something of an end-of-2017 report on Outer Colony's development progress and plans for the future.

-------------------------------------

The last two months have seen a great deal of behind the scenes activity on the project. The team has sat down and taken a long, hard look at where the software is now and where we want it to go in the future. Most of our discussions have come back to a central sort of question: What are we trying to build here? What's the ultimate goal of this project? What kind of experience are we trying to deliver to end users?

Answering these questions forms the basis of what a team does when they're building software. These answers constitute what's typically called a project's scope, and the scope is usually determined at the very outset of development. Outer Colony has lived, in one form or another, for a long time, though. Over the course of the time, like any project, it's grown and changed quite a bit.

When we first started drawing up designs for Outer Colony (which was called 'The Far Reaches' back then), it was really about providing a creative outlet for writing technically interesting software. It was just a sandbox for experimenting with plan generation, goal-directed AI, human behavior modeling, simulation mechanics, and implementing some novel data structures in Java to facilitate all this. Making it a proper game wasn't much of a focus, and facilitating any particular sort of gameplay invariably took a backseat to exploring technical possibilities.

As Outer Colony has developed, though, a few people outside the team started giving the project a try and actually played the game. We posted OC to Steam Greenlight, and it cleared that process in just a couple weeks. We ran an unsuccessful Kickstarter campaign, but we wound up with a handful of new players as a result. It's actually been very, very cool seeing people download the game, build up colonies of their own, and share their experiences and feedback. This thread is perhaps the prime example of that, and I've got to say – I get a big kick out of it!

As most of you guys know, I exhausted my savings earlier this year and could no longer work on Outer Colony full time, so I've been back to consulting from Mondays through Fridays. This has given us an opportunity to pause and really consider the future of the project. While OC started as a weird, experimental toy that was built primarily with myself and my friends in mind as the users, it's kinda' morphed into something that maybe a few other people might want to try, too. Having people outside the team enjoy Outer Colony has always been our aim, but the more people that try out the game, the more I'm enjoying that aspect of the project!

So what are we to do now? Before we proceed with the next phase of development, we have to decide:
Should Outer Colony continue to exist as experimental software, or should we try to make it an actual game?


After a great deal of introspection and internal discussion, we decided that we're going focus this next wave of development on making Outer Colony more fun! We're not going to abandon the simulation-first design principles, or try to simplify the AI to increase its predictability, or fundamentally alter Outer Colony at its core. The project is what it currently is, because that's what we want to make, and we're going to continue to follow that road.

What we are going to do is try very hard to improve the game's approach-ability. We want to make it easier to play and to provide a less mentally grinding experience. We want to make it look better. We want to make it engage players more thoroughly from the first minute through the hundredth hour of play time. We want to employ some more traditional game design techniques to provide players with an experience that's more satisfying.

After all, if Outer Colony isn't fun to play, then few people are going to play it. And if few people play it, we can't share its core technologies effectively. So let's make Outer Colony as fun as we can! That's the plan.

----------------------------------

With this goal in mind, I decided that we needed to bring some new expertise to the development team! While I build software for a living, I don't know very much about game design, and I don't know what I'm doing at all when it comes to game aesthetics.

I'm extremely excited to announce that DF forum member Solifuge, one of the pioneers and primary artists beind DF's Stonesense utility, has joined the team to work on Outer Colony! She is a remarkably talented game designer, with a deep, expansive understanding of what makes a game satisfying for a player. She's also an extraordinary artist, with perhaps more experience than anyone on earth in making isometric pixel art for games with volumetric, three dimensional world space.

I'd be remiss if I didn't offer special thanks to forum member Japa, the core Stonesense and Armok Vision developer who facilitated contact with Solifuge. The community on these forums is just amazing, and people are even more helpful behind the scenes in private messages!

Solifuge and I have spent the better part of November and December exchanging emails, assessing the current state of Outer Colony, and deciding on fundamental changes we're going to make as we continue development. We know for sure that we're going to overhaul the graphics to render the world using some sort of orthographic (approximately isometric) pixel art. The look of Outer Colony is going to be completely overhauled to give the game a more visually pleasing appearance, while also clarifying just what the player is looking at to make gameplay easier.

One of the hardest decisions that we're currently trying to make is whether we should maintain Outer Colony's fully three-dimensional world structure, or whether we should collapse the world into a single 2D plane, and I'd like to get the opinions of current players before we make a final decision. I was initially somewhat hesitant to abandon Outer Colony's 3D world model, but a very compelling case has been made to do so. I'd like to involve you guys, the existing player base, as much as possible in the decision making process for these key design points, but there's a great deal to be gained, from a gameplay mechanics perspective, from collapsing the world model to a single plane. I don't want to directly quote Solifuge's emails, but the points I make below are very slightly paraphrased thoughts from her end, so I can't take credit for this wisdom. Important improvements that a 2D approach confers include:

-It's much easier to present all the environmental and strategic information to the player at a glance. With multiple Z levels, critical information is almost always going to be obscured, necessitating constant and bothersome pauses and view adjustments for players to maintain awareness of the world.

-In Outer Colony's case, the quicker and easier players can make sense of the game world and the easier it is to navigate the space, the more easily players can engage in OC's core gameplay: the colony planning, the room building, the job assignment, the combat commanding, and so on.

-It's hard maintaining a mental model of a 3 dimensional structures, and this is especially so when they're effectively rendered in 2D, whether using isometrics or not. Building towers in OC now is a mentally strenuous exercise, and the sheer effort of maintaining these multi-level mental models occupies so much of a player's focus, distracting them from the more fun and engaging aspects of the game.

-Since most of the world isn't obscured by Z levels, players can much more easily watch the totality of the simulation play out. Fewer parts of a colony's emergent story and cool interactions among colonists are lost in a player's real-time view of the world.

-I'm going to get Solifuge's permission to quote her email on this point, but there are psychological reasons why flat-ish, tile based games work much better, relating to how humans' sensory-processing capacities just handle these kinds of spaces much better. More of a player's conscious mind is freed up for important gameplay tasks when dealing with a 2D world space, and this benefit goes all the way back to board games! It's part of the reason why 3D chess and checkers variants never took off, and I'm sure it's part of the reason why so few games attempt volumetric, 3D world models like DF's and Outer Colony's.

-Finally, a move to a flat-ish world space drastically, drastically simplifies the technical aspects of continued development. There are a lot of extremely hard problems to solve in rendering a fully 3D world using isometric graphics, and by collapsing world space, we remove a lot of risk from the project and free up hundreds or thousands of hours of development time to focus on providing gameplay that could be more fun to the player.

Certainly, in moving to 2D, we cede the ability to build truly three dimensional structures. The Minecraft-style building of towers or cavernous tunnel structures would be lost, three-space liquid flow and the possibilities it imparts would be gone, as well as proper atmospheric flight and a variety of other physical aspects of the simulation. But are these features the core of what makes Outer Colony attractive?

What do you guys think? If we collapsed Outer Colony's world space to a flat model, do you think it would improve the overall experience?

I'm very excited to hear what you guys have to say, and I'm looking forward to another great year of development in 2018. Thanks to everyone for all of your work testing and for being a part of this project!

-Sam
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( Tchey )

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #176 on: December 29, 2017, 01:31:58 pm »

We already have plenty of flat games like Outer Colony, Rim World is the most advanced one probably, so far.

We do not have many z-leveled games however. Dwarf Fortress of course, Gnomoria too but it's not developped anymore, and very few under-developped other titles.

In my opinion, you have a big empty hole to fill, if you manage to make Outer Colony a real game. It could be the next DF, only with a bearable GUI and real graphics to open to a wider audiance (i played DF before it was z-leveled and famous, and i still enjoy it from time to time).
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Malus

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #177 on: December 29, 2017, 09:41:13 pm »

Removing Z levels is probably the right move from a design perspective. I'm not convinced the additional mental overhead/UI clunkiness inherent to every Z-level implementation I've seen is worth the benefits. A single Z-level seems restrictive, and limits a lot of cool architectural choices -- consider Prison Architect, you're never going to be able to really replicate the prisons we see in film if you can only work with a single floor -- but is that what the game is about? Rimworld doesn't really suffer from only having a single Z-level, though it'd be nice to build walls your units could climb upon. Other games like Rise to Ruins suffer even less.

 I think a game like Dwarf Fortress needs Z-levels because of the adventurer component, not the colony building. If you're going to have the player walking around in the world, you need towers and cellars and winding mine shafts, and of course, dungeons. These things literally add depth and make locations far more interesting to explore. But in a building game, you don't need that kind of depth, you need a different kind, and forcing the player to manage dozens of 2D slices of a game world and visualize how they interact steals attention away from the interesting gameplay decisions they should be making, related to the actual workings of the colony.
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The Scout

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #178 on: December 30, 2017, 01:15:54 am »

Not sure how the whole mining industry will work without Z-levels.
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Paul

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Re: Outer Colony
« Reply #179 on: December 30, 2017, 01:30:26 am »

I personally think Z-levels adds a lot to the game, and makes it much more intriguing - as Tchey said, there are a lot of flat games already. But there is probably a reason for there being so many flat games - it's a lot harder to develop with z-levels, and it adds a significant (I would guess 50-100% more development time, but I'm a web dev not a game dev). Not having z-levels puts an artificial limit on the game's complexity, and requires a lot of simplification of things that could otherwise be very robust.

DF handles z-levels well IMO. You still see lower levels from above. If you could translate this to a isometric view, I believe the effect would be magnificent.

Perhaps you could do some kind of 3d isometric view as the default view? It would display all the surface levels at once, with the exterior of structures and such visible. This would allow you to take in most of the world at a glance. Then add in some quick way to view the insides of buildings, such as clicking on them or hitting hotkeys, that would jump you to the appropriate z-level for the interior of that structure (or the targeted level of it if it's a multi-level structure). Add in the usual keys to go up and down levels and I think you would have a solid UI for z-levels.

That still leaves all the developmental challenges and added complexity, which would cause a significant increase in development time.

It really just depends on one thing: Do you, as the developer, intend to put enough development time in to do multiple z-levels justice? Too little development and z-levels would cripple a game that could have otherwise been much more complex and fun. But if you are planning to put in the development time, having z-levels significantly increases the potential complexity ceiling of the game. And having them in from the start would save a lot of dev time in the long run.

So my vote is Yes to z-levels, with the caveat that you should flatten it if you don't think you can put in the dev time to really do it justice.
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