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[( Tchey )]

 I think a game like Dwarf Fortress needs Z-levels because of the adventurer component, not the colony building.

Whaaaat !? /em dies suddently

[VoyagerGames]

I personally think Z-levels adds a lot to the game, and makes it much more intriguing - as Tchey said, there are a lot of flat games already. But there is probably a reason for there being so many flat games - it's a lot harder to develop with z-levels, and it adds a significant (I would guess 50-100% more development time, but I'm a web dev not a game dev). Not having z-levels puts an artificial limit on the game's complexity, and requires a lot of simplification of things that could otherwise be very robust.

That's the thing, here - we've already done all the hard work to create a world model with Z levels. I've built out the customized data structures, implemented the in-memory compression, and have proper volumetric world space and all the accompanying physics: gravity, pressure-based liquid flow, and other features. We just don't render the 3-space in a visually intuitive manner, which is to say that we draw the world from a top-down perspective, with overhead, surface, and individual Z-level views.

The technical work is done, it's just that users seem to find the current setup very difficult to navigate. At this point, I'm sorta' going with Tchey a little bit and leaning toward bolting an isometric rendering framework onto the current world model, to display worlds in a Stonesense-type fashion. Solifuge is just abundantly aware of all the difficulties associated with making this sort of setup work, and as a game designer, she has a thorough grasp of the benefits of a tile-based world space.

We're going to wrap up our internal discussions and make a decision in the next few days, but feel free to share any further thoughts that you guys have!

Oh, and TheScout, you are correct mining (and a bunch of other things) would have to work differently. There are a bunch of ways we could do it, but it wouldn't be a matter of actually digging out spaces anymore.

[se5a]

DF tilesets do a side (or front) view of a top down tile. which is I think a lot easier to make sense of than a top down view of things.
Isometric is even easier to parse.
I'm going to side with (Tchey) on this one, I think Z levels can add a lot (though I've yet to get fully into the game).
There are other genre that do multi z, XCom for example (the old ones). UFO:AI (though that is full 3d, it's tiled with zlevels.)  might be worth looking to other genre to see how they've handled it. 
 

[EuchreJack]

Without Z-levels, you can't intuitively build into the side of a hill, build an multi-story apartment building, or otherwise interact with the world in an ideal manner.

It seems that the problem isn't the Z-levels, but the interface for them.  Combining the Top Down and View Surface into one display, and setting the Z-Level changer to default to the current level would be the key.  Basically, you now have three displays when you need them to be one.

I like Z-levels.  I think they add a "Wow" factor.

[Zangi]

Surface and above Z-levels are probably the biggest pain. 
My memory might be wrong... but its cause you have trees blocking the view between the leaves and the ground.  This sort of thing probably needs a better visual indicator that you ain't actually looking at the ground. 
Also an easy to see indicator that the ground isn't flat.

[VoyagerGames]

Surface and above Z-levels are probably the biggest pain.

I've often thought about just getting rid of these views and showing only Z levels. It's been a really long time since I've played Dwarf Fortress, but how does it handle this stuff? Does it provide surface / top down views, or does vanilla DF only show one Z level at a time? A part of me thinks that by adding these convenience views, I've just made things more complicated for users.

My memory might be wrong... but its cause you have trees blocking the view between the leaves and the ground.  This sort of thing probably needs a better visual indicator that you ain't actually looking at the ground. 
Also an easy to see indicator that the ground isn't flat.

I've tried pretty hard with this, but some of the rendering options might be buried in a place where users don't look. If you open the advanced view options dialog (clicking on the eye-button in the toolbar), there's an option called "Enable Elevation Shading". It renders lower tiles darker, and higher ones lighter, to give a quick feel for the terrain's slope:


You can also check the "Show Elevation" option, which will render a number on each tile, showing its Z level.

Still, even with all these attempts at making everything intuitive, the result just isn't smooth enough. I don't know if there is a great way to render a 3D world from the top down, as Outer Colony is currently trying to do.

With that said, though, I'm really attached to the 3D, volumetric nature of our world model, and I don't want to abandon it. I see some of you guys like it quite a bit, too. The possibilities it opens up are just too great to walk away from, so we're going to stick with 3D, but we're going to change all the graphics to use isometric pixel art, rendering the world in 3D from a fixed angle, like Stonesense does. It's going to be a ton of work, but I think the end result is going to look great and be much easier to play.

Wish us luck!!

Oh, and Tchey, I promised you a tour of Voyager Games corporate headquarters! Here it is, man:


This is where Outer Colony gets made! It's not much to look at, but really, what more does a software developer need? A folding table, a comfy chair, a computer, and a quiet room. That's all anybody really needs to do this sort of work, I think.

[Zangi]

Dwarf Fortress handles it by making the z-level view flat.  You don't see anything above your current z-level and anything below looks... errr... different.  Open air icon or something.
As for slopes/ramps, those things have a unique icon.   
...  Mind you, I am used to the DF view.  I don't know if DF view is actually intuitive for new people or not.  But, I'm pretty sure that having overhangs and the likes blocking the view is not new people friendly.

[EuchreJack]

Glad to hear you're keeping the Z-levels, hope we haven't driven you into a dead-end.

And thanks for giving us all a tour of your office.  I was getting jealous of Tchey for a second there...

[( Tchey )]

  I was getting jealous of Tchey for a second there...

I don't even know why i am quoted !

[ollobrains]

looking forward to more great news

[Cipactli]

Will ASCII graphics ever be implemented into this game?

[VoyagerGames]

Will ASCII graphics ever be implemented into this game?

It's unlikely that I'll ever make an ASCII view of Outer Colony, although I could probably implement this pretty quickly, if enough people really wanted it.

As a quick update, internal debate continues about the feasibility of the project, when it comes to attracting a wider group of players. We're not really sure at the moment whether a graphics overhaul will make the game significantly more approachable or appealing, and as much fun as it'd be for me to see the game in isometric glory, I don't know if I can justify the massive expense at the moment. I'm sorry it's taking so long for us to decide on the direction we want to take the project, but when so much of my personal money is at stake, I've got to make sure that I make the best decisions possible.

In the meantime, I'm still programming Outer Colony with all the free time I can find! For the last couple of weeks, I've mostly gone back to just coding whatever stuff I feel like coding, rather than addressing known defects or usability issues. The last pair of weekends have been spent tweaking some of the attachment and hate mechanics in the AI, and building more efficient data structures to manage all the human memories. I know these aren't the sort of mechanical features that you guys will readily see when playing (unless you're paying very close attention to specific colonists), but this kind of development is incredibly fun for me, and I wanted to get back to doing these sorts of things for a few weeks.

As always, I'll keep you guys informed of decisions we make regarding the future of the project, and I appreciate everyone's continued patience!

[Zangi]

The graphics is one of the bigger factors in Outer Colony's appeal.

I would prefer simpler/cleaner graphics, like the ASCII, over the super pixelated 80s budget graphics that it has now.  But, ASCII is just as unappealing to the common person.

[feelotraveller]

I'd like to say that graphics mean nothing to me, but that's not quite true.  What is true is that gameplay mechanics and features totally trump graphics.  So if there is a trade-off to be made I am all for sticking with the graphics that already exist.  (Plus I hold onto a hope, likely forlorn, that multi-z levels will one day make their way into the game...)

Actually without having played yet, the tweaking you mention doing above sounds like exactly the kind of thing that will appeal to me about the game, particularly since it is not commonly on offer elsewhere. 

[VoyagerGames]

(Plus I hold onto a hope, likely forlorn, that multi-z levels will one day make their way into the game...)

Thanks for the post, feelotraveller! Just to clarify, Outer Colony does have Z levels right now, and it's had them from the beginning. I'm not sure how the confusion arose earlier in the thread, but they've always been an integral part of Outer Colony's world model to this point. The discussion we've been having internally was about removing Z levels from the game and flattening our world model to simplify gameplay.

Ironically, we added top-down views and surface level views (which I think are absent from vanilla DF) in an effort to simplify viewing the world for players, but it almost seems like these views create more confusion than they resolve. Since so much action takes place on the surface, I can't imagine playing OC without the top-down view at a minimum, so it's unlikely that I'll remove it from the game prior to a graphics overhaul, but it seems like some users struggle mightily with the concept of different view types. I suppose there's a lot of work to be done in helping players understand this or in building a new graphics system that presents 3 space in a more readily understood manner.