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Author Topic: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions  (Read 6777 times)

piecewise

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Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« on: July 11, 2017, 10:58:11 am »

So I once talked about a game, years ago, that I described as "Mad Max with Wizards".  Cabal was a sort of attempt at making it, but it ended up going another direction and becoming something pretty different. Now, I don't dislike Cabal and there are people who do like the game, but I'm still chasing that MMWW phantom.  However, at this point I have two very different ideas as to how I should handle it. I'm gonna lay them out here and you guys can tell me how you think I should proceed. I'm fine with either.

Now, when I thought of MMWW I was talking more about the idea of a  society destroyed by the loss of a particular resource. Magic in my case, gasoline in mad max. That was basically the extent of it. However, some people wanted or expected a much more literal interpretation. Giant deserts, cars, leather, radiation and, for good measure, magic. A game where wizards fought atop souped-up dune buggies. I thought about this a bit and fussed around with the logistics of handling car chase fighting in a meaningful but not overly complex "miniatures war game" kind of way. I think I've found a good middle ground. Mixed fights of on the ground and in cars might be difficult...but they'll just require some fiddling.  The gameplay would probably consist mostly of fights; since mad max isn't known for long contemplative sections. I'd let players create their groups and then do what they want, trying to conquer areas. A lot of it would probably be PC vs NPC at first, but as their territories grew, PVP clashes would be more common.

The other option, closer to my original idea, was basically "Wizard Gang wars", where players choose one of the two gangs and effectively take part in PVP matches across different maps. Each map is an area in the city, and fights have different objectives. Think of them like ER missions but with two player groups each trying to succeed and prevent the other group from doing so. Each success would mark that territory as belonging to that gang and grant them access to what can be found in that area.  And of course, there would be missions to defend conquered areas. The major difference between the fights here and a standard team-based FPS would be that the area would be "Alive". There would still be NPCs around to fight back, call the cops, and even side with you, depending on various factors.




The other question is one of the kinds of magic system to employ. The standard idea would just be Perplexicon style. Albeit a bit tweaked: Don't hide the word meaning and make it so that certain words cost more mana. Though, in this case things remain a lot more subjective for me to balance or decide. And we have the problem of every fight essentially being a quick draw vs dodge contest to some degree.  I have other ideas, however these other ideas would mean losing the modularity of the perplexicon system. The upside would be a system that allowed more objectivity and more depth in terms of how combat works. The big problem with trying to pen in perlexicon with hard rules is that its freedom makes something like an HP system or set effects of modifiers basically impossible.

Opinions?

PaPaj

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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2017, 11:07:52 am »

The Gang Wars idea seemes good to me
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AoshimaMichio

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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 12:20:32 pm »

I think active PvP would be more fitting for MMWW. So the latter idea would be more interesting for me, but I think it would be better if each player was an entire gang by themselves. Then we could engage in alliances against other players, dividing your wizards between conquest and defense and glorious backstabbing. Backstabbing is must.

As for magic, I don't know. Perplexicon style is familiar for most people so that's plus.
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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 01:04:24 pm »

I think active PvP would be more fitting for MMWW. So the latter idea would be more interesting for me, but I think it would be better if each player was an entire gang by themselves. Then we could engage in alliances against other players, dividing your wizards between conquest and defense and glorious backstabbing. Backstabbing is must.

As for magic, I don't know. Perplexicon style is familiar for most people so that's plus.

Gangs of five six wizards, treat each wizard as an HP mechanically while employing chunky salsa damage in the fiction? Players may form megagangs of dozens of wizards, trade wizards between one another, sacrifice a wizard in a blaze of glory while making a retreat, that kind of thing?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 01:07:43 pm by Harry Baldman »
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Glass

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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 01:14:26 pm »

I think active PvP would be more fitting for MMWW. So the latter idea would be more interesting for me, but I think it would be better if each player was an entire gang by themselves. Then we could engage in alliances against other players, dividing your wizards between conquest and defense and glorious backstabbing. Backstabbing is must.

As for magic, I don't know. Perplexicon style is familiar for most people so that's plus.

Gangs of five six wizards, treat each wizard as an HP mechanically while employing chunky salsa damage in the fiction? Players may form megagangs of dozens of wizards, trade wizards between one another, sacrifice a wizard in a blaze of glory while making a retreat, that kind of thing?
I think I'd play that. :D
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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 01:48:03 pm »

In the first one, would the cars be standard gas powered real life vehicles, or crazy magitech vehicles? This version would have to have a fairly in depth vehicle creation/modification system to be fun.
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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2017, 02:10:06 pm »

Something like Perplexicon could definitely provide depth and variety, but several problems arise when handling the more powerful or useful words/concepts. In Cabal (which I just realized I dropped out of without a word of notice, sorry), you balanced it out by making people look for words themselves, which both limited the amount of words one could know in both temporally and numerically AND allowed you, as GM, to choose what words people got/were able to get to a large degree, making it hard and/or unlikely for players to get highly potent sets of words that would steamroll majorities of challenges. If obtaining the words you want was the challenge in this system, then another system might alter getting the STRENGTH of those words/concepts, sorta like what you did with Invokers.

Mages could choose one or two concepts, then get one or two random concepts assigned by the GM. Of course, the choosing part should probably have some description of what concepts would/wouldn't be acceptable. More useful/applicable concepts (such as Flesh, Shielding, Fire, Sword, Time, Lion) would have less potent effects than more specific/niche ones (Pillow, Feather, Smell, Gauntlet, Helium, Tapeworm), whether through roll bonuses/penalties, increased cost, or by limiting how far/much a single spell could do. Pairing versatile, weaker concepts with stronger, limited ones would be effective for multi-concept spells, balancing power and usefulness, incentivizing players to limit their skillsets to having few wide-range concepts while still allowing specialists to exist on this spectrum. Anyway, on an individual scale, players could be able to upgrade their concepts to make them stronger. This might be where the magical resource comes in, both in upgrading the concepts and/or as a "maintenance cost" for having stronger concepts, requiring magical energy (perhaps the magic gasoline) every so often to maintain their ability to use it (whether downgrading it or taking away the ability to use it if one doesn't get enough), proportional to one's magical power.

If the concepts are upgradable, we should consider some branching form of upgrades. I can see _ ways to upgrade it: Reduced mana (or equivalent) cost; Increased maximum scale (affecting larger area or having otherwise bigger effect); And conceptual range (allowing the applicable effects of the concept to expand. As example, "Flesh" could push/pull it at range at low levels, proceeding to summoning lumps of flesh,  repairing it, growing it, and then mutating it). Alternatively, you could just go Upgrade=Higher Roll Modifier and Added Aspects of Spell(larger, stronger, more potent, higher degree of control, etc.)=Decreased Roll Modifier.

On a separate note, I like the "Wizard Gang Wars" style you described. If you do do this, I would suggest considering some wide-scale enemy that all PC gangs would be opposed to, providing a reason for cooperation at times.

Also, I'm expecting a ninja assault of some sort. Wish me luck.

Yup, three of 'em.  Harry, the inter-gang politics you mentioned seem rather interesting, allowing for traitors, double-traitors, mercenaries, and circular hierarchies. NAV, that would pretty much fall under the Wacky Races RTDs, but some degree of creatable  vehicles and other large-scale weapons/utilities could be interesting in the second proposition.
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piecewise

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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2017, 02:19:56 pm »

the major problems with not having all players in one of two gangs:

1. time scales and actions become FAR more complex and hard to manage if people arent  on the same playing ground, so to speak. if everyone is either on the overmap or down in a fight, it is a lot easier. Those gangs nt in a battle will just end up sitting around, waiting.

2. multiple gangs is possiible but will more than likely not be very fair. In 5 gang turfwar, the gang with 3 people will more than likely get wiped out by the gang of 10. Which is fine, but some peole might feel annoyed that they are so out numbered.

3. lots of gangs just makes the post harder to organize and set up.  Also, the idea of each player controlling a whole gang would increase that 100 fold. Think about it.  6 wizards per gang. if we assume 5 players, thats 30 characters to keep track of. 30 spells. 30 attacks, 30 characters to label and move on the map. Which is doable if the rules are reql simple but it drastically lowers the number of players I can handle.


In the first one, would the cars be standard gas powered real life vehicles, or crazy magitech vehicles? This version would have to have a fairly in depth vehicle creation/modification system to be fun.
I was thinking it would be a modular setup where every car would be madeof certain components that do certain things. Engines can be either internal combustion or a demon heart. The both run on the same fuel.

Devastator

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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2017, 02:27:41 pm »

I'd recommend doing a battle royale to start things off if you go with the gangs, by just having all the players fight it out in an arena setting.  It'll let people get weeded out by the inevitable player-attrition before designating more permanent teams, and will take some of the burrs out of the combat system.
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PaPaj

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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2017, 02:44:32 pm »

I'd recommend doing a battle royale to start things off if you go with the gangs, by just having all the players fight it out in an arena setting.  It'll let people get weeded out by the inevitable player-attrition before designating more permanent teams, and will take some of the burrs out of the combat system.
good idea,i approve of this
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ATHATH

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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2017, 04:19:50 pm »

Gang wars all the way, baby.

Also, I'm just gonna preemptively call dibs on a spot in this new game, if I can.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 04:21:56 pm by ATHATH »
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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2017, 06:56:15 pm »

Gang wars all the way, baby.

Also, I'm just gonna preemptively call dibs on a spot in this new game, if I can.
Seconded
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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2017, 08:01:48 pm »

In the first one, would the cars be standard gas powered real life vehicles, or crazy magitech vehicles? This version would have to have a fairly in depth vehicle creation/modification system to be fun.
I was thinking it would be a modular setup where every car would be madeof certain components that do certain things. Engines can be either internal combustion or a demon heart. The both run on the same fuel.
Would that second one be better explained as an infernal combustion engine? ba dum tiss...
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syvarris

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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2017, 12:13:10 am »

Wizard gang wars all the way.  That's closest to my original interpretation, especially if which areas you try to attack or defend are choosable in a strategic fashion.  I do think there should be more than two gangs, as that allows more complex relationships and choices between players (Do we help the Skimmers in their fight against the Artificers, so that the Artificers don't get too strong, despite the cost in resources and risk of the Skimmers betraying us?), but it should probably be limited to no more than four gangs, and it might make sense if joining a team is mandatory.  It doesn't seem like solo players would really fit into the system anyway.  Oh, and no secret turns, so everyone has something to watch.

As for the magic system... well, I've never liked mana costs in Perplexicon, and the modularity of the system is important.  What if you used the full original system, but each word is sorted into one of five or so power brackets, and players get a random selection of words from each power bracket, with fewer strong words and more weak ones?  It would make the game more unfair, since there'd be variation even within brackets and one person with great word synergy would be hard to beat, but it would keep the puzzle aspect of Perplexicon's system, and add the interesting strategic element of targeting wizards with stronger spells.  Could even integrate word count with the stat system, so people with fewer words can cast longer/more spells or something...


...This all being said, is a big PvP magic game really something you should run right now?  You've got four games going, two without a player cap, and one with a complex system.  WIZARDS doesn't seem to need much work, but the other three do, and I know you've got stuff going on IRL as well.  However you run it, I'd expect MMWW to be a big timesink, and you already have a lot of timesinks.

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Re: Mad Max With Wizards: I need opinions
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2017, 12:13:48 pm »

Some one mentioned magic words and magic synergy, I have an idea for that. When we make a character, we choose the type of magic they would use and we get words based on that, that way we all have synergy with our spells.
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