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Author Topic: Tailor's sizing up for crafting  (Read 1654 times)

FantasticDorf

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Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« on: August 04, 2017, 03:52:40 am »

Whether it should be a part of metalcrafting or a seperate skill, the suggestion covers the use of a "Tailor" (aka a clothing architect usually involved in making and designing clothes) to actively trace out clothing sizes in unusual cases that there is a order to make a set of clothes for a gorlak for instance, which is essentially a disproportionate helmet with tiny other armaments.

Dwarves would earn about half experience of tailoring on the side of normal clothesmaking activities so that the skill can be built up slowly but earn more experience from exotic requests.

  • The workshop will reference beings on the map rather than abstract list of races, and the tailor will run out to these people, get measurements and return and begin working on the armor built for them.
  • With the above point's system, a future example could be examining a pet in order to build a subtype armor especially for pets that would fit. There IS a problem in that creature size varies as they grow like how dragon armor could become obsolete within the next 20 years requiring a new set to be forged/made but its continually a problem that can be worked on and shouldn't setback dwarves too much.
  • A bonus to a object being 'well tailored' as a modifier on the object adding value is that it will be more perfect fitting on the user by being sized exactly and less likely to slow the user down, in which case if you want to train your squads in armor usage you may require making armor in bulk.

A tailor either as a skill or a offshoot activity of clothescrafting (though it does also apply to armormaking) would be the replacement for the current chart of sizes.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2017, 04:11:27 am »

Seems like this skill wouldn't get much practice. How many different races do you get in a fortress? 7? 8? After the first measurement the race wouldn't be 'unusual' any more, so no need for the tailor.

Or perhaps I'm not fully understanding the suggestion. What do you mean by the last bit 'tailoring would replace the chart of sizes'? Without the chart, how would you make an order for gorlak sized armour?

Now, if tailors/clothesmakers could figure out what percentage of their work orders should be different sizes depending on the fortress citizenship, that would be clever.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 04:14:28 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2017, 03:04:02 pm »

Just to go back over my key points again, its a skill applied in creating clothes that is gained at a slow rate normally (i queue up some clothes, earn a small amount of tailoring skill and a normal amount of the crafting skill). Like architecture, to replace clothing chart sizes the individual is drawn from a list which then the tailor goes out to measure and runs back to the shop with the information to make clothes to those size dimensions

In choosing the subject to collect the information from, the sizes of the clothing/armor can be unlimited to any creature on the map, even your tame animals. More experience is gathered from preparing the clothes/armor (if i was to make a lot of human sized armor from practicing on my human visitor) of non-site entity creatures.

I understand your criticism, but the information is not indefinitely stored and would need to be refreshed for new orders but i imagine you could on repeat orders temporarily hold onto the information to mass produce clothes without sending out the tailor again. Its not a case of collecting measurements to store on the chart because it would be inaccurate in races with progressive growth, but the resulting object would fit the creature at the current time.

  • children's clothing comes to mind, made especially for young dwarves by measuring a child dwarf with a tailor skill which they may grow out of later and disown unless they are very short adults.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 03:10:57 pm by FantasticDorf »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2017, 03:30:05 pm »

So, sorry, very dumb here, walk me through how the game would work step by step.
You place an order for 130 sets of clothes. Then the tailor rushes about measuring everyone in the fortress (including the guys stuck in trees and deep underground), and then he goes back to the workshop to make clothes? Is that right?

Or do you no longer use the manager at all and set clothes on individual dwarves (pets, etc) one at a time? Can't imagine that's what you mean though as that sounds horrific.

And if everyone's clothes are tailor-made, does that mean you can't stockpile clothes or armour any more?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 03:41:10 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2017, 04:56:57 pm »

No need to fret, im probably not relaying myself across clear enough.

Its not feasable to do this from the work menu i would think, its intended as a workshop only design thing unless more detail was added to the work menu to support it but then you in all likelyhood would only be able to create custom tailored clothing to the dimensions of one person because specifying everyone could be indiscriminate work intensive & sloppy when ordered abstractly through the work orders.

Its optional, you can still produce clothes as per normal entity standards but through additional details (like specifying details of images etc on the workshop where the chart would usually be) you have the choice to choose whatever creature on the map for a tailor to take the measurements of to apply to the object.

  • Go to workshop -> queue up a job to create a wool tunic, before the job is initiated go into additional details and scroll the list of entities present on the current map to design the clothes on, the worker with or without experience will run out and take measurements, report back to the workshop and gather materials & construct object. Not dissimilar to a artitect visiting a trade depot to design it before letting another worker (or the same) complete the job.
If you do not specify anything it will default to the normal entity size dimensions, and if you repeat the specialised tailor job it won't require a tailor to come out again to measure because it will just carry on replicating the design, similar to how we can repeat images from workshop controls.

I would think that they stack clothes as normal but tailoring could tag more descriptive names ("Dwarf child tunic etc - "It is sized for a dwarf child") by inserting the creature's name in the place of the usual size descriptor as to infer more information to the player, and only creatures who can wear the said clothes would ever claim them, and return redundant clothes to the communal clothes dump stockpile.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2017, 05:15:17 pm »

OK. I see how it works now.

But not why you would want to do this. If 'standard clothes' fit anyone, why tailor make them for anyone? Noble demands? Happy thought for dwarf who values good clothing?

Or if you're just considering this for non-dwarves (or dwarves if your tailor's a human, presumably?) you've basically made the system more annoying.

Right now you choose 'human' from a list of races. To tailor-make a suit for a human you have to remember their name and select it from a list of a couple of hundred other residents. Repeat 10 times for suiting up a typical merc squad.

There's a good idea here someplace, I just can't quite grasp it right now (it's very early in the morning here...)
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2017, 06:28:05 pm »

It really depends whether clothes in themselves are changed in any respective way, but good tailoring (or more specific tailoring) offers value & weight loss so you can move faster and more effective in them. 

Since you raised the point, thinking that a tight if not close to exact fit may also decrease your exaggerated contact area from bulky armor ever so slightly, and having elven clothes via cheaty elf entity tag hacks all be uniquely tailored and bound even if not materially well designed so that they can be articulate in their grace. I mean like you mention also having a specialised fittings for noble wardrobes sounds like a good idea.

  • More value will naturally make the dwarves equipping it think higher of it, so a dyed & embroided masterfully made & masterfully tailored to the person piece of clothing is the utmost height of luxury.
  • Allows dwarves to dodge/move better without over-investment in armor abilities, especially useful for leather or adamantine armor which are both lightweight already to compensate & exaggerate whatever grace a dwarf may have at their disposal.
  • Minor comfort modifier good thoughts on well fitting clothes, as well as when eventually the clothes have to be discarded or are starting to exceed their current range (grown out of them) receiving negative thoughts that they are too tight. Humans wheeze when they have to try and slip into bulky dwarf armor that feels like a compact tin can and about as small.
It seems like a logical replacement for the chart that is flexible enough (in a particular way using atypical body models that aren't very common because non-dwarf migrants are turned off) to future challenges.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 06:30:39 pm by FantasticDorf »
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AceSV

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 08:32:47 pm »

Sorry, I'm tl:dr'ing you, but I've been thinking about the subject myself.  What should probably happen is that the clothings are made on auto-manufacture.  When a dwarf's clothing starts getting tattered, he goes to the clothier to be measured for some new duds, and the clothier makes the clothing as soon as the materials are available. 

I've been thinking about this for economics in general.  If a dwarf wants a new cabinet for his room, he goes to the carpenter, mason, glassmaker or blacksmith and pays for one.  If he wants his cabinet decorated, he goes to the craftsdwarf or jeweler and pays to have it decorated.  Same thing with clothing and jewelry.  The question then is how much does the player contribute?  Are you even playing anything at that point? 
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2017, 09:46:47 pm »

Sorry, I'm tl:dr'ing you, but I've been thinking about the subject myself.  What should probably happen is that the clothings are made on auto-manufacture.  When a dwarf's clothing starts getting tattered, he goes to the clothier to be measured for some new duds, and the clothier makes the clothing as soon as the materials are available. 

I've been thinking about this for economics in general.  If a dwarf wants a new cabinet for his room, he goes to the carpenter, mason, glassmaker or blacksmith and pays for one.  If he wants his cabinet decorated, he goes to the craftsdwarf or jeweler and pays to have it decorated.  Same thing with clothing and jewelry.  The question then is how much does the player contribute?  Are you even playing anything at that point?
Yeah, was thinking on similar lines myself. Maybe in the future your role as site manager will be more economiclly focussed. Do the dorfs have enough raw materials, should I start trading with black market goblins, is my military good enough to go raid the nearby human town for supplies, there's a war coming how can I convince the outpost liaison not to take all my stuff, are the clothing guild deliberately not delivering to the animal-people quarters, etc, etc. At that point offloading clothing decisions to dorfs would be reasonable.
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Japa

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2017, 10:46:23 pm »

I think a good middle ground would be to have a list of general sizes to pick from. Whenever you queue up an item of clothing to be made, with each size having a number next to it to indicate how many fortress residents you have in that size.

Then you can additionally tailor any clothing item for a specific individual that will give a happy thought when worn.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2017, 10:55:00 pm »

I think a good middle ground would be to have a list of general sizes to pick from. Whenever you queue up an item of clothing to be made, with each size having a number next to it to indicate how many fortress residents you have in that size.

Then you can additionally tailor any clothing item for a specific individual that will give a happy thought when worn.

OK, now I have a fortress filled with dwarves and maybe some animalpersons.  I need to recruit more militia and get them in their equipment and training, but I only have 3 "medium" breastplates, 2 "large" breastplates, 1 "extra-large breastplate", and 1 "extra-extra-large" breastplate. 

How do I search my residents for who fits those armors?
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Japa

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2017, 11:38:37 pm »

Well presumably there's be a way to see the size of each of your recruits.

I'm not at a computer right now, but when I am, I'll make a list of all the sizes that are there for intelligent races in vanilla, assuming current fitting rules, which say that a clothing sized x can be worn by a creature between 6/7x and 8/7x
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 11:40:26 pm by Japa »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2017, 11:45:18 pm »

Would rather see 'sized for elephant men' expanded on. Not just "size" but anything without a trunk and flappy ears should have trouble fitting into it.
I always know if there's an elephant-man in my military.
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Japa

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2017, 01:53:18 am »

I went ahead and collected a list of all sizes used by non-vermin in the game, split them according to clothing fitting rules, and listed some random creatures that use each size. (Many of which don't wear clothing, but still)

So the 3 medium breastplates will go to dwarfs, the large goes to a human, the XL can go to a deer man, if you have one, and the XXL can either go to the elephant seal men or rhino men.

Trolls are 4XL, and the largest animal man is 18XL. Interestingly, animal men using the animal man template seem to have a minimum size of XS, with kobolds and Ambphibian men being 3XS

Also of note is that, if clothing actually went by current creature size, rather than adult size, Dwarfs would go through about 11 sets of clothing as they grow up.

Clothing SizeBase SizeMin FitMax FitNameSample Creatures
1714312216320XSAdder
1819016321719XS.
1925421729018XS.
2033829038717XS.
2145138751516XS.
2260151568715XS.
2380268791614XS.
241,0699161,22213XS.
251,4251,2221,62912XS.
261,9011,6292,17211XS.
272,5342,1722,89610XS.
283,3792,8963,8619XSChild Dwarf
294,5053,8615,1498XS.
306,0075,1496,8657XS.
318,0096,8659,1536XS.
3210,6799,15312,2045XS.
3314,23812,20416,2724XSAdolescent Dwarf
3418,98416,27221,6963XSKobold, Amphibian Man
3525,31321,69628,929XXS.
3633,75028,92938,571XSAdder Man, Bat Man, Cave Fish Man, Cave Swallow Man, Olm Man, Eagle Man
3745,00038,57151,429SReptile Man, Rodent Man, Serpent Man
3860,00051,42968,571MDwarf, Goblin, Elf, Satyr
3980,00068,57191,429LHuman, Anaconda Man, Merman
401,06,66791,4291,21,905XLDeer Man
411,42,2221,21,9051,62,540XXLElephant Seal Man, Rhinoceros Man, Beak Dog
421,89,6301,62,5402,16,7203XL.
432,52,8402,16,7202,88,9594XLTroll
443,37,1192,88,9593,85,2795XLMoose Man
454,49,4923,85,2795,13,7066XLHorse
465,99,3235,13,7066,84,9417XL.
477,99,0986,84,9419,13,2558XL.
4810,65,4649,13,25512,17,6739XL.
4914,20,61812,17,67316,23,56410XL.
5018,94,15816,23,56421,64,75111XL.
5125,25,54321,64,75128,86,33512XLElephant Man
5233,67,39128,86,33538,48,44713XL.
5344,89,85538,48,44751,31,26314XL.
5459,86,47351,31,26368,41,68415XL.
5579,81,96468,41,68491,22,24516XLGiant
561,06,42,61991,22,2451,21,62,99317XL.
571,41,90,1581,21,62,9931,62,17,32418XLSperm Whale Man, Cave Dragon
581,89,20,2111,62,17,3242,16,23,09919XL.
592,52,26,9482,16,23,0992,88,30,79820XLDragon
603,36,35,9312,88,30,7983,84,41,06421XL.
614,48,47,9083,84,41,0645,12,54,75222XL.
625,97,97,2115,12,54,7526,83,39,67023XL.
637,97,29,6156,83,39,6709,11,19,56024XL.
6410,63,06,1539,11,19,56012,14,92,74625XL.
6514,17,41,53712,14,92,74616,19,90,32826XL.
6618,89,88,71616,19,90,32821,59,87,10527XLGiant Sperm Whale
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 02:00:55 am by Japa »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Tailor's sizing up for crafting
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2017, 03:12:10 am »

I would honestly rather see some work done to make the interface for either searching out what characters wear what sizes fleshed out, or else just see a "resize to this character" mechanic worked out. 

I don't see the problem this is solving, and it could create a lot of new ones, at that.
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"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
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