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Author Topic: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge  (Read 1339 times)

CLF3FTW

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As we all know, by the late game goblins aren't much of a hassle to deal with. The magma sea is also a rather boring place, with only three types of creatures calling it home, and it's completely safe to get infinite magma from them with only a glass grate. This does rely on invaders being able to dig, so we'll just have to assume that is in the game by the time this happens (It should be fairly easy to add, there are already versions of DFHack that add this).

Let's introduce our main topic - steel men. These would be an intelligent race organized similar to animal people and the same size as kobolds, but much physically tougher, being made of steel for their extremities and iron for their head and body and often using iron/steel weapons stolen from your fortress or other civs. They live in camps similar to animal people in the third cave layer, with stolen magma-safe objects. Because of these connections, they can attack kobold caves and worldgen fortresses, looting these sites of all magma-safe materials. Two more types of magma sea dwelling creatures would be added,  the magma jelly, which drowns out of magma and has no attack other than the default "push", and the lava worm, which can attack dwarves with its teeth and ability to spit globs of magma and live out of magma but is fragile.

You are probably wondering what these have to do with late-game sieges. Well, unlike kobolds, steel men are able to talk and are more organized than animal people and often their groups become close to goblin civs during worldgen. The leaders of the goblin civs they are affiliated to often have them join them on sieges where they attack sites from underneath while the goblins deal with the surface. Player fortresses can be raided by just the iron men with no associated goblin seige once they have discovered the second cave layer or the magma sea, and they are enlisted against forts by goblins once two or three sieges have failed. They can attack in two ways, the first usually used in raids and the second only in seiges.

The first is the simplest and simply involves them breaking any grates connected to the magma sea or and doors in the second or third cavern layers and coming in through there, killing everyone they can find with their stolen weapons, with a fair amount of lava worms coming with them. The second is more elaborate but possibly much more destructive. They are able to make a construction which restrains a magma jelly (it is not part of the construction but is stuck in the same tile, though the construction will be useless if it is killed) to use as a pump, making a passable, one-block pump that pumps straight upwards.

They will then begin building several upwards shafts that can go as high as the end of solid rock and the beginning of the soil/aquifer/glacier layer but usually stop at a lower level that are filled with magma using these pumps. Then, at close to the same time, sideways segements of these shafts will be dug into areas the AI thinks are most susceptible (large rooms and the tops of stairwells) flooding these areas with lava. The steel men will then enter the flooded area and steal any weapons or armor that are made of magma-safe materials and they deem are better than the ones they already have, before fighting with the survivors and triggering all intact switches they can find to open the gates for their goblin allies. If the shafts can be extended further and they are encountering resistance, the shafts will be extended to large rooms or stairwells that are still controlled by your dwarves. This will continue until they retreat (which may not happen even if the goblins give up) or all of your dwarves are dead.

I think that this would make the late game more of a challenge in fortress mode but might come into problems with artifacts becoming irrecoverable (though this might not be a problem). It would make security more spread out though the fortress instead of just near the surface (even if regular invaders are able to dig they would still usually only go for shallow targets), and encourage more modular designs and a more extensive water infrastructure deep underground to deal with magma leaks they create. This would still be a decent challenge even in the late game, and even if you were able to kill all of them in seconds it would still cause damage. It would also make magma less overpowered by making it more risky.

EDIT: Added suggestions and made the formatting better.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 10:45:20 am by CLF3FTW »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 04:09:04 am »

I don't mean to be rude, but since toady does try to skim the first post of each suggestion on the suggestions board, it helps if they are grammatically presentable.

Okay lets pick this apart.

As we all know, by the late game goblins aren't much of a hassle to deal with. The magma sea is also a rather boring place, with only three types of creatures calling it home, and it's completely safe to get infinite magma from them with only a glass grate.

This does rely on invaders being able to dig, so we'll just have to assume that is in the game by the time this happens (It should be fairly easy to add, there are  already versions of DFHack that add this). Let's introduce our main topic - steel men. These would be an intelligent race organized similar to kobolds, but much physically tougher, being made of steel and often using iron/steel weapons stolen from kobolds and fortresses in worldgen.

Steel men are actually probably too much of a challenge to the usual user, given how difficult metal forgotten beasts & bronze colllosi can be in being ineffectively, steel is also respectably tough when its a creature's entire skin composition. Let alone a entire civilisation of them which seems a bit over the top.

They live in clusters of small caves close to the magma sea connected by slim tunnels partially full of magma, which they can swim and breathe in, with connections to the magma sea as well as the second and third cave layers. Because of these connections, they can attack kobold caves and worldgen fortresses, often flooding them with magma to kill their residents with less risk, looting these sites of all magma-safe materials and sometimes even taking over them after they have been filled with magma.

Im critical in a well meaning way when i say this is extremely flawed and can be recreated by simply copying the iron man (from the third layer caverns) with a metal template to spawn on the magma layer, and underground civilisations at this current point in time don't exist, so to put them feasably in the game until those mechanics are realised would mean you would just find groups of these nigh invincible steel men standing around a camp fire like the current subterranean civilisations.

Two more types of magma sea dwelling creatures would be added,  the magma jelly, which drowns out of magma and has no attack other than the default "push", and the lava worm, which can attack dwarves with its teeth and ability to spit globs of magma and live out of magma but is fragile.

Can be done with raws but id like to see more biodiversity, something i can support here.


As for the rest, i am supportive of

1) Sieges arriving from the underground
2) Enemy factions colluding/allying to kill your fortress
3) Smarter AI with burrowing/building and creative creature use to breach defenses

But all of these are already broad and long way off development goals and your presented idea of steel men & goblins arriving via the magma layer (given that the magma ocean isn't as open as the subterranean, goblins can't swim in lava as well as a steel man could) is a bit skewed. That's my honest opinion.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 04:11:35 am by FantasticDorf »
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Dragonunion

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 04:23:30 am »

They would be really hard enemies. Out of steel. How to kill them?
Magma: No damage
Traps  :Nearly no damage
Soldiers:really hard battle with nearly combat

So I think, they should be rare and smaller civilisations then Goblins or Dwarfs.
And they should be added together with other civilisations which live in the caverns and are intelligent like the surface civs.
That would make it more balanced and really interesting for Adventure mode. With wars underground or between caves and
surface. And you could trade with them.

Alone a magma civilisation would be really hard when they have to many inhabitants.
Hope this will come in future!
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CLF3FTW

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 10:31:42 am »

They would be really hard enemies. Out of steel. How to kill them?
Magma: No damage
Traps  :Nearly no damage
Soldiers:really hard battle with nearly combat

So I think, they should be rare and smaller civilisations then Goblins or Dwarfs.

Yeas, that's true. It would probably also be a lot easier to implement if they lived in places similar to animal people next to magma pools in the third cave layer, and they weren't able to take over sites. In regard to them being too challenging, they would be the same size as kobolds and fairly rare, as well as having their heads and bodies made of regular iron. They would have to have some type of organization to make them able to associate with goblins, but it would still be easier to do than making them from scratch. I'm editing the post to add these now.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 10:44:49 am by CLF3FTW »
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Nilsou

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2017, 11:40:43 am »

I'm not agry with the "this will be too hard" comment. As DF in late game SHOULD really be hard. Player running into the magma should have a great challenge and pay for it :p
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Dragonunion

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 05:01:26 am »

Quote
Yeas, that's true. It would probably also be a lot easier to implement if they lived in places similar to animal people next to magma pools in the third cave layer, and they weren't able to take over sites. In regard to them being too challenging, they would be the same size as kobolds and fairly rare, as well as having their heads and bodies made of regular iron. They would have to have some type of organization to make them able to associate with goblins, but it would still be easier to do than making them from scratch. I'm editing the post to add these now.

The idea of these is really cool! Would be eally much fun to fight against them. Hope this get added one day:D
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 01:52:58 pm »

Steel men would be a bit too tough for a non-modded game, seeing as how central magma is to dwarven life, but I do like the idea of semi-civilized creatures occasionally raiding you from the magma sea - something to deter players from simply digging to the magma layer right from the start, before having proper equipment.  Perhaps Ifrits, the larger, cleverer cousins of the Fire Imp.  Modders can add steel men in their place for an extra challenge, of course.

StagnantSoul

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 08:27:29 pm »

Yeah this is definitely more of a thing that should be modded in, almost everything about it would be challenging even for long time players if they didn't have some modding backing them up.
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Bumber

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2017, 05:34:23 am »

Aren't the fire crabs and imps dangerous enough with their flaming projectiles? Magma men are building destroyers.
Players already seal off their magma forges to prevent civilian deaths, so if current inhabitants could tunnel it's not really a huge difference.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 05:39:10 am by Bumber »
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nutregina

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2017, 11:02:21 am »

We already have lots of powerful creatures running from you know, while we don't see anyone on islands.
Maybe it's better to add a sea civilization with underwater towns and let them to attack surface, probably only a few big map cells from costline.
And when they die, they leave 7 water as a corpse (from their diving suit).
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anewaname

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2017, 11:52:33 am »

Creatures made from steel. Do they have organs and a biology that maintains an internal heat? Do they have a metabolism and "consumption/fuel" needs? What happens if you hit them with a massive heat-absorber like a water trap? These same questions should apply even if the the steel man just a construct built and controlled by some fire "elemental" civilization, with the idea that "it is magic" is not the answer to everything.

Steel might be one of their objectives, but since adamantine has a much higher melting point, it would give them an advantage in political/social fights within their own society and would be more desirable for them.

The idea of "magma sponges" as a critter is very amusing. Like a high-heat-environment fungal-bloom of sorts.
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CLF3FTW

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2017, 12:04:18 pm »

Aren't the fire crabs and imps dangerous enough with their flaming projectiles? Magma men are building destroyers.
Players already seal off their magma forges to prevent civilian deaths, so if current inhabitants could tunnel it's not really a huge difference.

Anyone who puts a floor grate over their magma source is completely safe from those  creatures forever.
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Bumber

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Re: Civilizations In the Magma Sea - Making Goblins more of a challenge
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2017, 05:14:50 am »

Anyone who puts a floor grate over their magma source is completely safe from those  creatures forever.
As well as any other threat.

As I said, civilized or magma crab, it doesn't matter. Only the ability to dig.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 05:19:48 am by Bumber »
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A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?