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Author Topic: Dwarf fortress multiplayer  (Read 38193 times)

pisskop

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2017, 06:19:27 pm »

boop
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LordBaal

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2017, 06:57:02 pm »

WTF? Was this even real? Are your sure is not a elaborated hoax or something?

 No offense, is just that this is crazy.
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Reelya

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2017, 09:23:31 pm »

What I meant is how did he accomplish that? For the better part of a decade people have been posting suggestions to make the game multiplayer, only to be rebutted with replies on the lines of 'it's impossible', 'games have to be built from the ground up for this to work', 'it would require years of work and rewriting', and so on. So to say I'm surprised that someone just shows up and drops a couple scripts that make it possible is an understatement.

They were talking about something completely different. What people were saying was "impossible" was each person running their own actual copy of Dwarf Fortress fortress mode, running an entire fortress yourself, but all the fortresses being part of the same "world" somehow, e.g. able to send armies to other player's fortresses, or being able to switch into adventure mode and go visit someone else's running fortress. This is what they were refering to, and it is what is still impossible for all practical purposes.

We've been able to have multiple people remotely log into a single copy of DF for frikkin' years now. however, the limit is that everyone was basically controlling the same fortress at the same time. So it was in fact more on the level of "twitch plays DF" than having separate players. What Warmist seems to have done is taken the that idea but added external logic so that each player who logs in has separate controllable units in the game, probably using DFHack and other tools to interface into the game. This could get pretty creative, however the core limit is that you all need to be part of the same running fortress on one person's computer. So it's effectively a layer where each person has a little input into one game, rather than everyone running their own game.

Even though these can both be refered to as "dwarf fortress multiplayer", they refer to completely different things.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 09:41:08 pm by Reelya »
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wierd

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2017, 09:41:20 pm »

I dont mind, this is a neat idea regardless. 

Instead of a succession game, we would have a concurrence game.  Big improvement if you ask me.
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pisskop

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2017, 10:00:22 pm »

until we all armed our squads to the teeth and murdered each other when we go on break.

allllso ... I happen to know the perfect trap that can be triggered without dwarves at the players whim ....
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 10:03:00 pm by pisskop »
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Putnam

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2017, 10:00:35 pm »

What I meant is how did he accomplish that? For the better part of a decade people have been posting suggestions to make the game multiplayer, only to be rebutted with replies on the lines of 'it's impossible', 'games have to be built from the ground up for this to work', 'it would require years of work and rewriting', and so on. So to say I'm surprised that someone just shows up and drops a couple scripts that make it possible is an understatement.

They were talking about something completely different. What people were saying was "impossible" was each person running their own actual copy of Dwarf Fortress fortress mode, running an entire fortress yourself, but all the fortresses being part of the same "world" somehow, e.g. able to send armies to other player's fortresses, or being able to switch into adventure mode and go visit someone else's running fortress. This is what they were refering to, and it is what is still impossible for all practical purposes.

The adventure mode thing basically is, but sending armies around doesn't sound untenable to me as long as it's done abstractly enough.

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2017, 10:07:28 pm »

PTW
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Reelya

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2017, 10:17:31 pm »

What I meant is how did he accomplish that? For the better part of a decade people have been posting suggestions to make the game multiplayer, only to be rebutted with replies on the lines of 'it's impossible', 'games have to be built from the ground up for this to work', 'it would require years of work and rewriting', and so on. So to say I'm surprised that someone just shows up and drops a couple scripts that make it possible is an understatement.

They were talking about something completely different. What people were saying was "impossible" was each person running their own actual copy of Dwarf Fortress fortress mode, running an entire fortress yourself, but all the fortresses being part of the same "world" somehow, e.g. able to send armies to other player's fortresses, or being able to switch into adventure mode and go visit someone else's running fortress. This is what they were refering to, and it is what is still impossible for all practical purposes.

The adventure mode thing basically is, but sending armies around doesn't sound untenable to me as long as it's done abstractly enough.

Well it could be possible if you lift units completely out of one game and basically e-mail them to another game. But it wouldn't be tracked in-game. e.g. the worlds themselves would be divergent since they're running on different machines. Also things like FPS wouldn't be consistent, since one player pauses the game while designating. If a whole season whizzes past in one player's game, and an army is sent out, then when should it arrive on the other machine. What if I sent an army in Spring, yet I had paused the game and you didn't, so you're already in Fall? The army "should" arrive in Winter, yet you've already had your winter yet no enemy army turned up.

Basically, the idea of syncing diverse copies of DF isn't viable.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 10:22:07 pm by Reelya »
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KittyTac

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2017, 10:19:37 pm »

Definitely not a hoax. I played this, lots of dead kobolds everywhere, werebeasts spawncamping, fun. Let's hope this comes online again.
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Reelya

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2017, 10:24:12 pm »

Of course it's not a "hoax". It's running one copy of DF on a server somewhere. That's been possible for a long time. Though he's added another layer of game elements on top of that (unit spawning mainly). The issue seems to be that it's just a shared Arena Mode and not any more than that.

When the term "multiplayer Dwarf Fortress" is thrown around people imagine a whole pile of things, that any one implementation probably don't involve, e.g. neither Fortress Mode nor Adventure Mode are supported in this "multiplayer Dwarf Fortress".

He has mentioned possible ideas for Fortress and Adventure mode here that reveal the limitations of only having one copy running for "multiplayer": e.g. in Adventure Mode, every player would be a Companion, and the "Adventurer" would be a ghost who always moves to the center of the group of players. So basically if you log in, then you're hacked in as another companion of the AI-controlled "Player". Which sounds pretty clunky, as effectively you are reliant on that one AI-script to run the actual "player" completely, which means that the types of Adventure Mode actions you can do will be much more limited than normal play.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 10:34:45 pm by Reelya »
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Putnam

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2017, 11:32:20 pm »

What I meant is how did he accomplish that? For the better part of a decade people have been posting suggestions to make the game multiplayer, only to be rebutted with replies on the lines of 'it's impossible', 'games have to be built from the ground up for this to work', 'it would require years of work and rewriting', and so on. So to say I'm surprised that someone just shows up and drops a couple scripts that make it possible is an understatement.

They were talking about something completely different. What people were saying was "impossible" was each person running their own actual copy of Dwarf Fortress fortress mode, running an entire fortress yourself, but all the fortresses being part of the same "world" somehow, e.g. able to send armies to other player's fortresses, or being able to switch into adventure mode and go visit someone else's running fortress. This is what they were refering to, and it is what is still impossible for all practical purposes.

The adventure mode thing basically is, but sending armies around doesn't sound untenable to me as long as it's done abstractly enough.

Well it could be possible if you lift units completely out of one game and basically e-mail them to another game. But it wouldn't be tracked in-game. e.g. the worlds themselves would be divergent since they're running on different machines. Also things like FPS wouldn't be consistent, since one player pauses the game while designating. If a whole season whizzes past in one player's game, and an army is sent out, then when should it arrive on the other machine. What if I sent an army in Spring, yet I had paused the game and you didn't, so you're already in Fall? The army "should" arrive in Winter, yet you've already had your winter yet no enemy army turned up.

Basically, the idea of syncing diverse copies of DF isn't viable.

"As long as it's done abstractly enough" was me specifically taking into consideration then promptly ignoring schedule conflicts as unworkable.

Warmist

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2017, 02:34:00 am »

Oh cool, when i loose interest suddenly people gain interest :D

Re: hoax thread-> you are very correct saying that people want different things from multiplayer. E.g. i would love to have normal adventure mode, however it's currently not possible (with my skills?) and it has a problem of turns on top of that (how do they pass? What happens when you are in grapple menu? etc...)

So it's just an easiest solution i've found: arena mode (simplifies unit relations thus making everyone fight, limits the world, no adventure mode fog of war (which i've not found a solution for) and there is no fort death problem).

Also the server is not running because if i'm not working on this then i'm doing something else and it's lagging (e.g. ksp with a lot of stuff ~ DF with a lot of stuff) and if i'm working on this then it's constantly broken until i finish what i'm doing.

Re sending units and stuff: I've had some ideas about it. Mostly the "dwarf item deposit" where you could upload items and stuff and then download it (as a first step). However even such "simple" thing as an item can have deep "roots" with engravings which mention historic events and so on... End product i've envisioned was site merge, where you could import a site into your world with EVERYTHING. Thus new community game mode where it would be constantly forked and then merged back with players having that kind of multiplayer. (Also TODO: how to "order a carvan with these items to that site"). But all of this is insane amounts of work (though not hard probably)

I'll try running a server Saturday, coz probably won't be home.

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2017, 12:20:11 pm »

That forking idea is interesting partial solution to the pausing problem. Obvious sticking point is stuff like world divergences outside of sites, be it through wars or by visitors who would visit any player fortress in year x (thus causing a conflict if they die in one fort and live in other). Might be only possible in DF2012, given that.

Generating/sending armies via unit deletion/creation scripts seem like they should be possible, however.

Regarding fog of war, a naive probably-impossible idea you probs already thought of is to maintain all the viewcones in memory at once. I recall that Toady dreams of whole world being loaded to the depth of fortress/adventurer direct interaction, but such is not possible at current time. A "low scale" upgrade to arena mode might be perhaps to use hacking to create 3x3 world and then embark anywhere over the whole world (stick a vampire in a off-map cage or something to avoid fort death.), but I don't know if the npcs and army formation would behave correctly (and the fps would probably be in single digits on embark, whats with the 9x 16x16 embark area.)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 12:22:10 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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KittyTac

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2017, 09:27:51 pm »

That forking idea is interesting partial solution to the pausing problem. Obvious sticking point is stuff like world divergences outside of sites, be it through wars or by visitors who would visit any player fortress in year x (thus causing a conflict if they die in one fort and live in other). Might be only possible in DF2012, given that.

Generating/sending armies via unit deletion/creation scripts seem like they should be possible, however.

Regarding fog of war, a naive probably-impossible idea you probs already thought of is to maintain all the viewcones in memory at once. I recall that Toady dreams of whole world being loaded to the depth of fortress/adventurer direct interaction, but such is not possible at current time. A "low scale" upgrade to arena mode might be perhaps to use hacking to create 3x3 world and then embark anywhere over the whole world (stick a vampire in a off-map cage or something to avoid fort death.), but I don't know if the npcs and army formation would behave correctly (and the fps would probably be in single digits on embark, whats with the 9x 16x16 embark area.)

Why not do this: 7 people are dorfs on embark. The others are spectators. If there's fewer than 7 people, dorfs will be controlled by df-ai. Players can join in as immigrants once the wave arrives. You can build by going into a spot and selecting what to build from a drop-down menu. This will designate the building. For the time of building it, your dorf will be df-ai controlled. Same with working on workshops. There's a chat option, but only people in 10 tiles range in any direction can hear you, so maybe make some dorfs criers? Fighting... guess arena-style, but you can press a button to retreat? Once the fort falls, it will rotate into adv mode, for which I have no ideas ATM.
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Reelya

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Re: Dwarf fortress multiplayer
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2017, 09:50:35 pm »

If you can come and go like that, it makes more sense to just let spectators take over the dwarf of their choice when they log in, then the "original 7" or whatever isn't needed and people can drop in / drop out as desired. The main problem however is the persistent nature of a fortress and what to do with it when no-one is playing.

And the bigger issue is whether this is a more fun way to play the game than e.g. just a regular succession fortress?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 09:52:06 pm by Reelya »
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