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Author Topic: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?  (Read 9068 times)

carldong

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Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« on: August 20, 2017, 03:42:24 pm »

I am trying to play with obsidian farming, as I want some infinite stone source (after the experience of embarking on layer of Aquifer without bringing stone and unable to turn those pesky boulders into usable rocks). Then according to Dorf Logic, I instantly deviated my mind into making a next generation doomsday machine... What about a Death From Above(TM) system which requires minimal work to reload?

Now that I don't have a lot of experience with DF, and I don't even know how to set up a military, and have not even built a single pump. However, I am curious whether it is possible to create horizontal extrusion of obsidian, possibly outwards from a corner, like this:

Side view:

 
Code: [Select]
FFFFFFM
WWWWWW
FFFFFFW
FFFFFFW

Assume F is floor, W is water, and M is magma. This is what I am unsure of: if I pour magma over a waterfall, does it cast a tile of obsidian, connected to the wall adjacent to it, or does it cause a cave in or something?

And I only need to know whether it is possible for one tile. I am a Computer Engineer, so I can always build a dwarven state machine to extend it block by block, using complicated setup of pressure plates, flood gates, and retracting bridge.

End goal: a hanging ceiling of doom that needs minimal dwarfpower to reload, covering the entire map at 100-z, and controlled with one single lever for firing, and another for reloading.
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carldong

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2017, 03:43:39 pm »

I will start a new embark to test this, but I might not survive to see it... Meanwhile if anyone has an answer it would be greatly appreciated.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2017, 04:12:20 pm »

Hm.

If it is connected the moment it forms, it can stay jutting out from the side, such as with obsidian towers in the volcanoes.

If, at any moment, the obsidian wall enters freefall it'll go straight to the bottom, even if there's a wall to the side.

carldong

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2017, 04:18:35 pm »

Hm.

If it is connected the moment it forms, it can stay jutting out from the side, such as with obsidian towers in the volcanoes.

If, at any moment, the obsidian wall enters freefall it'll go straight to the bottom, even if there's a wall to the side.

That's what I am uncertain of. Does it connect?
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Starver

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2017, 04:53:45 pm »

(I thought I replied already. I linked to http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=116413.msg3609848#msg3609848 as a (difficult) way for it not to connect upon forming, which I'm not sure is still possible, I'd have to test once more. Otherwise, assume it connects if you're not actively avoiding it. The rest of the post included stuff about how you might connect-but-not-block the liquid interface. Don't feel like tapping that out again.)
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2017, 05:49:48 pm »

I tried to make a 3D printer for closing up 50+ levels of cavern entries (so it was vertical, not horizontal). However, it did fail repeatedly because obsidian formed under the control drawbridges. Somehow one of the fluids stuck to the underside of the "nozzles" at times and converted into obsidian when the other one was poured, despite waiting between closing one and opening the other one (the control was dwarf lever pulled, so it shouldn't have been too fast). I eventually abandoned the project.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2017, 08:42:44 pm »

I had an idea like this sometime before, but never tried to implement it. I found that this can be made to print arbitrary 3d obsidian constructions at one-tile resolution. It looks like this:

Code: [Select]
█ -- wall
+ -- floor
. -- open space
¢ -- hatch cover
W -- water source
M -- magma source
D -- water drain
-> -- pump

side view:

 █████████
██¢¢¢¢¢¢¢██
█.........█
█.........█
█.........█
█.........█
█.........█
███████████

z = 0

  █████████
  █¢¢¢¢¢¢¢█
  █¢¢¢¢¢¢¢█
███¢¢¢¢¢¢¢█
M->¢¢¢¢¢¢¢█
███¢¢¢¢¢¢¢█
  █¢¢¢¢¢¢¢█
  █¢¢¢¢¢¢¢█
  █████████

z=-1
 ███████████
 █.........█
 █.........█
 █.........█
 █.........███
 █.........<-W
 █.........███
 █.........█
 █.........█
 █.........█
 ███████████

z=-x
 ███████████
 █+++++++++█
 █+++++++++█
 █+++++++++█
 █+++++++++███
 █+++++++++->D
 █+++++++++███
 █+++++++++█
 █+++++++++█
 █+++++++++█
 ███████████

Construction begins by filling the construction area completely with water, and the reservoir on top completely with magma. Then, the pattern for the bottom-most layer in the design is loaded into memory. A clock pulse opens the hatches corresponding to the "filled" tiles in the bottom layer. The magma above those hatches falls down and solidifies with the water at the top of the construction area. The obsidian then caves in and drops to the bottom, magma-pistoning the water in its way. The pattern for the second bottom-most layer is loaded, and the process repeats until the figure is completely constructed. The excess water is then drained from the construction area.
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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2017, 09:01:07 pm »

That's what I am uncertain of. Does it connect?
Yes, if you already have walls in your waterfall pourer.

I suspect you don't, with bridges and pumps.

That said, I don't see a way to build general-purpose static 3D printer able to build any structurally sound shape with pouring from above due jutting elements in particular being workable only on highest z-level.

As a potential alternative, consider combination of water and magma-filled minecarts; with track stops you can have them dump their load in the same tile in the same step, if you so desire. Perhaps you could alternatively turn the printer horizontal instead of vertical.

With a very clever design*, it might be possible to take advantage of the fact that shotgunned magma/water is a contaminant of magma[833] or water[833], until it hits the wall or stops, upon which it turns back into 2/7 water or magma. By using parabolic arcs, multiple tracks, precisely-controlled velocities and timing and perhaps sideways movement it would be possible to deliver 2/7 water or magma to any one floor or wall surface that falls between the minimum and maximum arcs traced by the contraption. Since you can only hit the wall from one side at once, you'd obviously need to be able to hit it from four sides at once.

However, on the plus side, it's easy to imagine using it to construct an upright plus sign, which would be outright impossible with static "falling from above".

* Seriously, you'd need to encode X destinations + return systems each into 4*X track systems 1-wide for X by X arena, and possibly double that if using separate track for magma and water.

Furthermore, any input system you use must be able to encode anything you desire to be possible, i.e. you must be able to input a representation of desired object that can be mathematically transformed into it exactly. In dwarf fortress, that typically means levers. Assuming you can make the machinery, how would you ask the system to build "A on z1, B on z2, C on z3, D on z4 and E on z5"?

*Scrolls up to the OP*

*Realizes the OP is not talking about maximally general 3D printer, but merely making unsupported caveins over an area*

Uh.

Water and magma can flow on bridges and off pumps, which won't support the obsidian.

With that, it's relatively trivial to build a map-spanning bridged containment area on zdesired holding water, another slightly higher holding magma, and then retract the retracting bridge with magma to have it fall into water. This will crush the unsupported bridge beneath under obsidian wall, so need to prevent subsequent flow into hole from elsewhere as well as reconstruct and relink the bridges afterwards though.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 09:04:22 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2017, 09:20:02 pm »

That said, I don't see a way to build general-purpose static 3D printer able to build any structurally sound shape with pouring from above due jutting elements in particular being workable only on highest z-level.

Ah. So my design is incorrect.
However, we might still make it work by filling the construction area with water only one z-level at a time. That way the design doesn't rely on cave-ins to work.
Although, a cave-in might still happen, if the magma doesn't solidify all in one piece. If magma always drops at the same speed, this problem shouldn't manifest itself.
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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2017, 09:29:55 pm »

Ah.

Good point.

That would work for an upright plus sign indeed. +, +, +++++, +, +. Bit of timing necessary, but it'd be lot simpler.

How would you do an upside down J, though? Don't see a way to make hanging shapes beyond minecart glob collision with ceiling.

Zuglarkun

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2017, 09:31:50 pm »

You might want to look up this thread. You also might want to search for aussieguy's dwarven checkerboard.

As others have pointed out, if the obsidian forms next to any free hanging structures (walls, ceiling, floor) the obsidian is connected to the structure when it forms.

A workable design has been done before for single tiles or long single tile corridors to produce a long line of cave-ins. But anything over a wider area is more tricky due to the placement of pipelines of water and magma.

3D printer would work if positioning of one or both inputs (water and magma) can be precisely controlled. Just print one level at a time using drawbridges or hatches. But fine-tuning shapes would be very difficult. See below.

Personally I make mine (obsidianizer not printer) like this.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


You're gonna have to dig out the obsidian afterwards.

bloop_bleep

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2017, 09:45:24 pm »

How would you do an upside down J, though? Don't see a way to make hanging shapes beyond minecart glob collision with ceiling.

Why not like this?
Code: [Select]
█████
    ███
      ██
       █
       █
       █
       █
       █

What I'm thinking about now is how to destroy the figure after being built, other than tediously mining through it. The only thing I can think of right now is by somehow dropping it into a bottomless pit.
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carldong

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2017, 12:54:10 am »


As others have pointed out, if the obsidian forms next to any free hanging structures (walls, ceiling, floor) the obsidian is connected to the structure when it forms.


That's all I need to know. Actually I am not making a general-purpose 3D printer, just one that can reload a cave-in apocalypse machine. Therefore, I must not have a floor underneath the obsidian tiles.

For the continued extrusion, I see that there are minecart-roller computing and timing cycles, and screwpump-liquid logic gates, and zero-point free energy generator, so as an computer engineer I should be able to get something simple running.  First goal would be casting a piece of floating obsidian larger than 3x3.

Of course, my test embark died to a werebeast. And I found out the hard way that dwarfs are not very efficient at building skyscrapers, requiring essentially squared amount of material to build a single floor (OK, 40x40 is too large anyways). I will generate a more peaceful world which does not involve very large amount of beasts.
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carldong

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2017, 12:57:21 am »

And I really hope dwarfs can build cranes, moving natural wall or constructed ones. Just so that I can move a magma "writing head" in 2D.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Obsidian 3D printer, possible?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2017, 02:39:27 am »

Single piece of 3x3 obsidian. Main question is if you want to preserve all buildings used in construction, and if you (probably) do , how do you make the center tile.

Seems like one would best cast it it at higher z-level, and have it collect together in cave-in at the bottom. So for map-wide cavein it'd make pyramid or several pyramids.

@bloop_bleep: The upside-down J was an arbitrary example of a hanging structure more than an actual goal :P
Ultimately, it seems like it'd be simplest to remove scaffolding afterwards.

Beyond a bottomless pit, there's also the magma sea. Ice-based system with air biomes might be better, though ice has some tendency to not notice it should cave in, unlike obsidian, and leave behind unwalkable empty space once it melts.
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