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Author Topic: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)  (Read 15163 times)

nenjin

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2017, 04:40:04 pm »

That has a cooldown, he survives one hit, but won't survive the next for a few turns.

Cool down is possible, not guaranteed. Still you're right, it's not absolute.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Paxiecrunchle

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2017, 04:43:04 pm »

This sounds amazing, I think I'll check it out later today.

Darkmere

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2017, 05:07:12 pm »

Not everything is good for every relic. Fusions are absurdly good for Faith Heart characters because you can cheaply fish for other abilities with... Revelation, I think? The relic modifier that grants a new ability.

I had a 77th spot finish with a Faith Heart/Heal/Fire yesterday, died at level 15 on floor 11.

Spoiler: long dump is long (click to show/hide)

The icesworn slime was incredible for most of the run. I waffled about replacing him with an Alma but ended up not. The Ukobach and I both having ember burst and warmth meant SP regeneration in combat was through the roof most of the time. Upwards of 15 a turn or more in some cases. Tormentor on Headless and the slime meant they never ran out of buffs/debuffs to cast, either. Next time I'm going to have to get SOMEthing that can cleanse stuns. I've lost too many runs from it, I'm sick of that.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

nenjin

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2017, 05:48:53 pm »

It's probably a faux pas to suggest this but I kind of feel like the game could use a better title. It's a great game and I feel like it has more character than the name "Demon" implies. Demon Tower, or Demon's Tower or something like that is a little more descriptive and evocative of the game. Makes it sound like an old school NES game.

No subtitle though.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 11:28:07 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

FerretDev

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2017, 10:04:29 pm »

Oh wow, lots of feedback! Thank you, everyone. :D There's a ton here, lemme throw out some replies, though it looks like a fair number of gameplay questions at least have already been answered, particularly by ShinQuickMan (thank you!)

1) Whisperling: Starting resistances are indeed influenced by both your starting relic and, sometimes, the first element you choose.

2) Various: Vihkor is a big jerk. He's generally one of the first encounters you hit where it's very easy to get "checkmated" (i.e.: in a situation where you end up needing to unsummon someone each turn until you're out of allies and wind up dead.) You may not quite have a chance before you reach him, but while you're still learning the game, Quick Summon and/or Quick Dismiss can be amazing relic upgrades for digging out of these situations. (Crown of Glory starts with both of them: if you don't mind playing a melee, that's a good way to make sure you have them when you need them.)

3) nenjin: Yeah, the message log in general is... crap. I actually hope to largely get rid of it one day. :D There is unfortunately no way to see the log in game at the moment though. There are relic upgrades (available at 5th, 15th, 25th, etc. level) that expand your stable. The mouse interface could definitely still use some work.

4) Tchey: I saw the videos! I wish I could understand French! :( But regardless, thank you for making them, there has been a definite spike in activity connected with when they first got posted. :D I've had other reports of full screen mode not always working properly, but unfortunately I haven't had time to sort it out yet (and if it is Linux specific it may be tough: I release Linux builds for Demon, but don't have a Linux box to test on.)

5) nenjin, again: Thanks for the typo report. :D I'll fix it in the next build, though it's a big one so it will be awhile yet. I actually specifically avoided the "is it better to be loved than feared?" type question because they always felt too RNG to me in SMT; but, maybe that isn't as bad a thing as I think it was, and would it give some more variety to successful negotiation strategies. I'm glad you're enjoying the game so much!

6) Snuff Out's chances are affected by anything that affects damage dealt, such as various buffs, debuffs, and passive Abilities. It can actually get quite impressive, since the base damage is higher than an attack usually gets. :D

7) Fusion's primary use is usually to adjust resistances, followed by stat adjusting. The abilities are much more RNG, but you will sometimes get something quick nice as a cherry on the sundae. It's worth noting that any fusion adds about 12% to MaxHP (before resistance/stat changes are applied), so if you really like a demon or are trying to squeeze out some extra HP for a tank, it can be worthwhile for that too.

Thank you everyone for the feedback, comments, and suggestions! I'm always happy to see so many new players enjoying Demon. I did read everything here and make notes on much of it, even if I didn't have a specific reply, and will continue to do so (hopefuly more often so I don't end up with 3 pages to read and respond to at once and can be more on top of things.)

Good luck in the Tower!
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nenjin

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2017, 11:37:44 pm »

Well to be fair, cycling through replies waiting to see one that isn't "give me all your money" or "sac a vital party member for 2/5 reputation" is also RNG. I feel like with the dialog replies there's at least some learning and some lore going on. Viles respect strength, holies respect honor, violents respect aggression, mindbenders respect cunning....that's how it always felt to me in SMT. Sure there was some RNG thrown in to those responses as well, but by and large it encouraged me to learn the attitudes of different species of demons and what demons fell under those species. Made me feel like a real smrt summoner.

Like I said, for me at least, in Demon asking for HP or items is doable. Credits generally doable but not in the early game and not when the repeat the same price or higher for 1 rep at a time. And saccing party members, for me, is generally always unacceptable. One advantage save scumming has is you can really take the RNG for a ride...and trying to recruit a shoggoth my choices basically were: re-roll until he asks for some combination of life and items (and actually accepts them instead of grunting at 24 HP he just gobbled) or lose between 1 and 2 party members. I think it took 6 or 7 reloads to finally hit that balance.

I guess my feeling is, if I'm going to be stuck with RNG no matter what, at least it should be flavorful RNG. (And by all means, make giving a really poor response to some flavor question have a pretty negative response in turn from the demon. Or throw some fun, positive RNG in there too. Lots of opportunity for more writing, and getting the demons in to character.)

Also on an unrelated note: it'd be nice if when moving at least one minion could move in front of you. I feel like you're constantly eating the brunt of the first attacks as the summoner because you effectively lead the party where it's going until combat starts.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 11:42:13 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Paxiecrunchle

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2017, 03:11:10 am »

 I've now learned that the reason that this game is titled "demon" is because it's like wrestling with one just to download the thing, okay that first part was a joke but really hosting it on...google drive? Which doesn't let you do direct downloads, why?

getter77

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beorn080

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2017, 09:28:59 am »

A few suggestions for the early game.

1. Lowet the credit requests of goblins and redcaps. Fairies are extremely useful, so they should remain. But goblins are asking for just as much, and they ask for medium or large caches worth. Abbey lubbers are another, but they are also pretty worthwhile and ask for a lot of items.

2. Add in other requests. Fairies are tricksters, somewhat. Maybe have a request be something like, wanna see something interesting? Yes/no. If yes, approval and random effect. Teleported across the dungeon, put to sleep after negotiations end, 2 more fairies show up, your party is dispersed across the dungeon. Could work for other creatures too.

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Ustxu Iceraped the Frigid Crystal of Slaughter was a glacier titan. It was the only one of its kind. A gigantic feathered carp composed of crystal glass. It has five mouths full of treacherous teeth, enormous clear wings, and ferocious blue eyes. Beware its icy breath! Ustxu was associated with oceans, glaciers, boats, and murder.

ShinQuickMan

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2017, 01:38:59 pm »

1 is likely intentional,dependent exclusively on monster types; not all deals will be fair, and not all demons are created equal. Also, item requests may give two points instead of one based on the monster's (base?) level and item requested. What's more, pre-fused monsters are more difficult to impress.
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beorn080

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2017, 01:47:47 pm »

Oh i know 1 is intentional. I literally meant on just those two types, as both are very weak. To recruit one of each is almost an entire levels worth of credits on the first few floors.
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Ustxu Iceraped the Frigid Crystal of Slaughter was a glacier titan. It was the only one of its kind. A gigantic feathered carp composed of crystal glass. It has five mouths full of treacherous teeth, enormous clear wings, and ferocious blue eyes. Beware its icy breath! Ustxu was associated with oceans, glaciers, boats, and murder.

Darkmere

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2017, 02:25:07 pm »

I'm not sure gobos and redcaps are that worth it in general unless you want a redcap for ranged support, and it's easy enough to start with one if that's the case. You can save your credits for faeries then.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

nenjin

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2017, 12:06:33 am »

So I see what you're saying about Frost being more efficient now. Sudden Chill is, compared to the other area skills, pretty stupidly efficient. You get the chill benefits, reasonable 40 Power damage and it has no cooldown. Compared to the other more exotic AoEs like Light and Dark that's.....pretty damn good right out of the box, no supporting skills really needed, flat out better than Mindscream. Passives can change a lot of that but then you can just pile more easy cold stuff on to chill. It makes abilities like, lets say, Cull a lot less appealing to use because there's so many restrictions on it and so few on something like Sudden Chill. Why wait around for everyone to hit 50% health for a big 130 Power attack when you can do 160% Power damage over 4 rounds to everyone and get the chill benefit out of it?

Anyways, enjoying the upper level gameplay quite a bit. I'm enjoying seeing the different packs that get put together and going "yep, someone thought this through." Turdak is crazy strong, and his level was a master class of FU mechanics. Good times.

I keep leaning melee with like 80% of my demons. Even though I'm getting the sense that late game it gets pretty outclassed by machine gun squads of ranged demons. Spotting demons in the Tower right now is like having a gun fight in an empty parking lot....with you holding a knife. And yet it's so satisfying watching your melees go into a pack of demons and sustain all on their own.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 12:25:46 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Darkmere

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2017, 12:34:16 am »

I just lost a Crown guy to a pack of ... something. The japanese hand ghosts backed by two casters that spammed AoE Infection every turn. Melee will eventually simply end you, your party, and everything you hold dear.

And then there's Madevra...
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

nenjin

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Re: Demon(Demon-taming, Monster-crafting, Dungeon-crawling Graphical roguelike)
« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2017, 02:11:39 am »

Quote
The japanese hand ghosts backed by two casters that spammed AoE Infection every turn.

MaxHP down can be a bitch due to the conversion rate of XP to life restored (I was seeing on average 1 to 2 HP restored per enemy killed.) Strangely though some guys like Turdak and Artemis just....seem to ignore it and take it as normal damage? I know it's not because of Dark Resist because I have it and lose MaxHP to attacks. Maybe it's Body? After a couple rough experiences with my melee being made useless for an entire level by MaxHP down, I just started having Artemis tank those packs. She actually didn't do all that bad, either, because the enemies are squishy and more or less one note with swarming and draining MaxHP by the fist full. I don't know if her and others' seeming immunity to it is a bug or a feature but I couldn't figure out the reason for it.

Little spoilery down below.

Madevra was a tough fight because of all the layered melee defenses and Guilt on hit self healing. I went one round against her and she tore apart my best melee while self healing away all their damage. Round 2, she must have missed a lot of her blocks....but I also started aggressively applying MaxHP down. More on that below.

Some of the Hero and Summoner combos beyond her though just get more and more vicious. Remember Reshape from way back in the first levels? There's a passive later on that essentially makes it cooldown in 1 to 2 turns if you're getting hit. A freaking Endure cooldown. You wanna talk about unkillable? How about something that drops all its status effects and puts 150 power heal on itself every 1 to 2 turns as a free action. And then gets a Summoner Relic to shield them on top of that. And maybe the scariest looking unique I've seen yet as a pet, on top of all the other normal panic/stun/poison/infection shenanigans from 1 or 2 other summons. It's downright fucking fiendish. I had to burn like 5 items to ultimately win the fight. I just didn't have enough mobility, damage output or healing to deal with all that stuff. (Also putting a unique we'll want to recruit behind a really hard summoner fight? Kind of stressful trying to keep them alive through all that. I was literally aiding the enemy just so they'd survive the Summoner dying.)

I'm starting to think MaxHP down is like, one of the easiest ways to circumvent several challenges in the game. Or stand a chance in some fights at all, for that matter. The fights based around healing mechanics have been the toughest to overcome for me, and getting in there blasting away has often tipped the balance in my favor, even with just my Summoner doing it. Draining MaxHP also ends fights against enemy Summoners faster by nerfing their Relic, while making your Relic protection more robust.  I only just realized how Relics actually work with your HP, burning your MaxHP when you're at 1 HP to keep you alive longer. Put a whole new spin on draining MaxHP from guys. I seriously doubt I could have beaten half the difficult fights without it. (I feel like the last 3? Summoner/Hero fights I've done have all had some sort of crazy heal loop you have to overcome.) But maybe someone doing a lot more direct damage than I am would disagree.

I want to like Infection as an easier and cheaper way of dealing with healing but the cleanses are real and their casters are sitting behind a wall of unkillable guys. So I'm thinking I might do another game at some point with a MaxHP drain, melee focused crew and see how much easier that is than trying to overwhelm heals with raw DPS.

I also gotta say I was super pleased to see higher tiers of Demon affinities. This game just keeps delivering on the content. Of course many of them are just going to be better versions of their lower level selves but they've got cool names and got my interest again just when I was starting to think I'd seen it all.

If I have one suggestion that might make the game a little bit less....lopsided when you start running into higher level passives with ever more broken effects is.....SP cost multipliers. For example, if a passive targets a specific ability and makes it amazing, like almost removing the cooldown from Reshape or Second Wind, maybe it should multiply the SP cost (Or give it a cost to begin with). The jump from Tier 1 Skills to Tier 2 in SP cost isn't insignificant, but if cheap Tier 1 skills can be lifted to godly levels with one passive.....mmmmmmaaaayyyybbbbbeeee they should cost just a little bit more. At the lower levels it's not too bad, but at higher levels when I'm sure you'll have packs of 5 guys all throwing end-game damage AoE supported by end-game passives? I feel like every skill in game needs to be thought of in the context of "ok, what if there are 4 guys doing it?" That's kind of what I feel like the demon packs you encounter in each level are trying to teach you, "how do you deal with Panic when there are 4 guys spamming it on you" or "how do you handle 4 guys spamming fireballs and igniting you?" There should be as many vectors as possible in this game for players to break heal/invulnerability/status effect spam. And simply making everyone pay more for these crazy combos might make SP more relevant, especially for the cheap, easy combos like the one I just saw. I gotta give you props FerretDev, for Lilou or whatever her name was. That was a twisted SMT style boss fight, nice work.

I also think it'd be cool if there was a Relic upgrade that let you summon demons from your Codex as though you were reviving them. Just their basic, uncustomized version. Maybe make it more expensive than reviving so it stays balanced. I figure if players want to spend the resources to resummon old guys and pull skills off them they should be able to. I personally agonize a lot about what demon I have to get rid of to make room for Transpose Soul, and it's be nice to not truly delete them. The last 8 deleted demons thing is a nod towards it, but you just end up going through too many demons too fast, and don't have credits necessary to work with them when you need them. It'd just be simpler and more fun for me if I could recall Demons from the Codex.

I'm kind of posting stream of consciousness at this point as I play.

When I hit F5 Demon tells me it thinks my desktop resolution is 1152x864. And it's definitely not. I'm actually getting the black bars despite what I said before. Is there anyway to change that? Does Unity Personal have a pre-game config menu like I've seen in other Unity games?

Is the game pretty good about being explicit when things do and do not apply. I see a lot of "heal on x, y, z" specifically says it doesn't apply to reactions. Bloodthirst however doesn't mention that reactions aren't included.

Does the minion AI know which abilities to use based on the immunities and weaknesses it can see? I ask because when I have a demon with two of the same ability with different damage types (say a fire and an ice attack), are they smart enough to know to use the right one? Or should I scrap one for a good passive or something instead?

God the player relic wraiths who have stacked all healers around an AoE based Heart Summoner...I think one combat maybe went 90 turns.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 06:22:40 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti
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