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Author Topic: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!  (Read 1899 times)

E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2017, 11:44:14 am »

I'm still not sure 120/+2 commanders are worth it though, when they take the place of 2 80/+1s.

I'd think that would depend on how awful the basic morale of the troops in question are. E.g. a Bandar Noble seems more likely to be worth the extra cost than a Legatus Legionus. It also might matter if (as per the question posed to you earlier elsewhere) you're using end-of-battle morale instead of out-of-battle morale.

Formation fighter now changes troop density, effectively making unit count as smaller (or bigger) for purpose of fitting in a square.

Do you recall if the the larger units communicating their larger size via the formation fighter icon? I basically ask this to try to make an indirect prediction of how likely it is that this command will be available to mod with...
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Zonk

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2017, 02:49:43 pm »

The formation fighter icon doesn't tell you the value of the ability (other than being different if it's the negative version).

It's already moddable, it reuses the old #formationfighter command but obviously with different values: I experimented with it and was able to make size 2 units that were 4, 5 or even 6 to a square
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2017, 06:14:03 pm »

That's good to hear.

Is the number of troops to a square (with Formation Fighter, Shrinking, Larger, etc. accounted for, ideally) accessible anywhere in the UI? I know size is there, but this would be a handy bit of info to have - or at a minimum it would be useful if the FF icon stated how much it was changing the default value.

This also seems like it might be worthwhile to look at with some of the edge cases for size transitions; size 1 vaettir and size 2 bakemonos are probably the unit types where this sticks out the most. Vaettir are definitely the "biggest" size 1 troops, and I could see them being 5 to a square instead of 6 - and likewise, I could see bakemonos (as probably the smallest size 2 humanoids; I am remembering correctly in thinking they long ago were size 1, right?) being 4 instead of 3...

(On a more NationGenerous note, I look forward to making hoburgbred and markatabred take up slightly more space.)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 06:18:18 pm by E. Albright »
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Zonk

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2017, 02:21:24 am »

It's not accessible in the UI, but it should be pretty obvious from context it's just one 'step' (and if a mod were to change more - say 5 humans in a square - I would consider it likely overpowered).

I'm not sure the mechanics currently allow to make size 1 units 5 to a square. Bakemono could be 4 to a square, but seeing them have 'formation fighting' would feel very unthematic.

I suggest you don't worry much about modding support right now; We have several modders in the beta team, not just me, and understand modding isn't the top priority right now but have already requested future support for fully modding events (#selectevent), poptypes & defenders, and new blesses (not creating new ones perhaps but changing paths, costs and passive/incarnate status).
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 02:25:03 am by Zonk »
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2017, 02:44:43 am »

I'm not sure the mechanics currently allow to make size 1 units 5 to a square. Bakemono could be 4 to a square, but seeing them have 'formation fighting' would feel very unthematic.

I agree it would look weird enough that the result would not feel justified (though it might feel a little better if it was only the warriors - probably still not enough, though), and it's a pity that we can't get something finer-grained for the size-1 folk. Ah, well, 'twas an (over exuberant) thought...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 02:46:31 am by E. Albright »
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2017, 06:24:54 am »

What counters a dense square of really good units (imagine some blessed dudes with fire/death/ice pikes just waiting to poke you)?

I personally really like that there is no more "my units attacked first" advantage. I was always to lazy to look up unit movements and place units correctly anyway.

Might lead some more intresting battles, like both armys casting earthquake at exactlly the same time... - but - what about the defenders advantage? No more first turn... It's already quite hard to surive when you're on the losing end.
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2017, 04:44:38 pm »

That does touch on something I'm curious about: when do battles end now? Is there any difference between attacker and defender for auto-rout?
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Frumple

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2017, 11:59:38 pm »

What counters a dense square of really good units (imagine some blessed dudes with fire/death/ice pikes just waiting to poke you)?
I'd imagine the same things that more or less always has? Debuffs and/or AoE damage they don't resist and/or enough chaff/spam they fatigue out and die, etc. Maybe tramplers, but I seem to recall repel actually being one of their counters.

Could always be room to add specific formation killing abilities, though. It'd be interesting to have a battle spell or unit ability that temporarily (or permanently, for that matter; new affliction, paranoia, giving the unit like a 10 point malus) messed with that formation fighter value. Could easily see pan's lot, some of the oni nations, r'lyeh gate spawn, horrors, etc., able to stop nearby units from bunching up. Stuff that causes it to fluctuate would be entirely too appropriate, too -- it'd be ideal for like a second stage berserk effect or somethin'.
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Zonk

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2017, 02:22:21 am »

I think higher troop density is a disadvantage enough of the time that the addition of specific counters is hardly needed though.

(though I would like to see insanity do *something* on troop, but it could be just a chance to not act that round or target an ally)
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Frumple

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2017, 08:47:48 am »

Oh, it's not really there as a specific counter, per se. Just something that seems like it would be obvious given the change in the effect. I could actually see it making some fights harder, even -- if you actually did something where berserk could cause unit density to flux, and by extension cause the units to spread out, I'd imagine it'd make stuff like 'zerker provinces notably more difficult and/or inconsistent. Do neat things to AoE/arrows/etc., too.

'Course, if you were actually playing with the mechanic instead of just having it as a static effect sort of thing, spells that specifically target certain densities -- not necessarily low or high, mind, but varying depending on the spell -- would be another obvious step, there. That cornered rat spell could grant bonuses the more stacked up units are, heat/cold auras (or fear) could have an adjustment based on density (probably not generally enough to outperform larger units with higher bases, but enough it's notable, and possibly synergies for specific units, too), all sorts of stuff like that. Certain priests or song-using units having a choral effect when close enough to each other (with density adjustments letting you stack more into an area) or somethin' would be thematic enough I'm suddenly wondering why something like that isn't already in the game (auto-commune when close enough to someone or X number of someones with the same trait?).

Almost certainly not needed from a balance perspective, of course, but imo unit density would be a hella' neat mechanic to be able to explicitly play with rather than it just being there or something incidental to an effect's impact.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 08:52:58 am by Frumple »
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sprinkled chariot

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2017, 01:41:53 pm »

I wonder, if asassins would actually get to be viable without :

* summons skeleton *
* summons skeleton *
* summons skeleton *
* summons skeleton *
* summons skeleton *
* summons skeleton *
* summons skeleton *
* summons skeleton *
* summons skeleton *
* summons skeleton *
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2017, 02:40:53 pm »

They still can do that, but it takes a Const-4 item instead of a Const-0 one.
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2017, 03:00:56 pm »

...something nasty just occurred to me. It would require you taking Death 2, but... Half-Dead Marverni boar spam. The horror...
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2017, 03:18:34 pm »

What's so scary about that? Isn't Half-Dead is just Need Not Eat and Disease Resistance? I can see it enabling you to put more nature gems into boars since you no longer care about supply. A bag of wine isn't going to put you back on many boars though so I don't see what is so horrible about it. Unless I'm missing something important here.
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Cruxador

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Re: Dominions 5: Warriors of the Faith Announced!
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2017, 05:52:15 pm »

Lots of people are trying to come up with things to put on the boars to make them OP, but at the end of the day they're still boars.

Making them faster and enlarging them will let them kill more, but if you're just using them for blocking, which is what they're best for, they're made worse now since blood vengeance (which is the best thing for making evocations hurt) costs more.
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