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Author Topic: Item value overhaul  (Read 967 times)

thompson

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Item value overhaul
« on: September 20, 2017, 07:42:19 pm »

The current system for item values leaves a lot to be desired. Currently, the equation is

M x Q x I

Where M is the material value, and Q the quality, and I is the item value. I propose changing it to:

M + QI


Thus, gold thrones that use 3 bars of gold will be worth more than gold crafts that use one, for instance.

Ideally, it could be taken a step further with the equation:

M + Q x I x m

Here m is a special modifier that considers whether a material is fit for purpose. So steel weapons may get a modifier m=3 (or whatever), but only m=1 if used for crafts.

This would allow a rebalancing of material values. The value of steel could be dropped significantly, so steel swords are still very valuable, but steel thrones could be worth less than brass ones.

I'd also like to see precious metals becoming rarer, and possibly generating fewer bars when smelting. Value could be increased to compensate. Furniture should be worth more relative to crafts, and it should be more difficult to make Royal dining rooms, etc. I like the idea of gold/metallic leaf as well, but now I'm rambling.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2017, 08:30:52 pm »

Item value will be completely overhauled when the economy is introduced. Until then any new system is just another placeholder.
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Bumber

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2017, 11:47:27 pm »

The current system for item values leaves a lot to be desired. Currently, the equation is

M x Q x I

Where M is the material value, and Q the quality, and I is the item value. I propose changing it to:

M + QI


Thus, gold thrones that use 3 bars of gold will be worth more than gold crafts that use one, for instance.
I don't get it. Looks like you're just adding the material value instead of multiplying it. How does that help?
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 12:47:53 am »

The current system for item values leaves a lot to be desired. Currently, the equation is

M x Q x I

Where M is the material value, and Q the quality, and I is the item value. I propose changing it to:

M + QI


Thus, gold thrones that use 3 bars of gold will be worth more than gold crafts that use one, for instance.
I don't get it. Looks like you're just adding the material value instead of multiplying it. How does that help?
I think the OP is saying that material value multipliers are OP, so is trying to dumb down their effect by adding them instead of multiplying them.
EDIT: Just realized I used both meanings of OP in a single sentence. You'll figure it out.  :P
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2017, 01:14:58 am »

Platinum op, please nerf?
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Quarque

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2017, 02:38:38 am »

I propose changing it to:

M + QI

Thus, gold thrones that use 3 bars of gold will be worth more than gold crafts that use one, for instance.

I think the formula you wrote down is not what you meant. With that formula, a gold throne would still be worth just as much as a golden trinket of the same quality and item value - you are not taking the amount of used material into account yet. Perhaps you mean this:

M*n + Q*I

Where n is the number of units of material that were used for construction?

edit: Actually, before discussing formulas, I'd like to understand what exactly is wrong with the current values in your opinion?
I read three issues in your post (please correct me if I misundetstood)

1. Steel non-weapon items are expensive.
2. Number of bars used aren't taken into account.
3. Precious metals are too common.

So my response to each would then be:
1. Imo it makes perfect sense in the world of DF that steel furniture is as expensive as gold. Steel is a scarce metal of very high quality and utility. Only dwarves know the secret recipe. If steel would be as scarce irl as it is in DF, I'm sure the rooms of filthy rich people would be filled with steel furniture to show off.
2. If this is really a problem, it can be tweaked with the Item Values. No need to change the formula for that.
3. Gold, maybe? Platinum is surely not, as the poster above mentioned. It would help if you could be more specific.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 03:03:35 am by Quarque »
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2017, 10:22:28 am »

^^ Yes, I agree. Napoleon used to have *aluminum* silverware since back then aluminum was much rarer and harder to smelt than gold. Nowadays, aluminum is comparable in price to copper. What's considered "luxurious" often depends quite a lot on how hard it is to get.
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2017, 10:38:56 am »

Aye if our planet was littered with diamonds we'd want stones with more complete colours than that. Another such example is silver in certain times of Rome was soooo much more special than gold.
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thompson

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2017, 12:31:55 am »

Yes, I did neglect material amount, unintentionally.

The formula I suggest is essentially intrinsic value plus value added by labour, which is more realistic and would be easier to feed into economic models. The current system makes no sense at all from an economic standpoint.

I see it as a transitional system for the full economy, as you'll need some heuristic means of generating initial values and relative values of similar objects that differ only in quality or material. That  all said, I have no idea how Toady intends to implement the economy, so this may all be moot.
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thompson

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2017, 12:36:36 am »

Just to stress, I am not claiming that precious metals are currently OP, rather, that the current value system makes no sense economically. This is about realism more than anything.

Edit:
- I had gold in mind when saying precious metals are too common.
- Nerfing steel would make rarer metals like platinum better, in a relative sense at least. Steel really isn't that hard to produce - certainly nothing that justifies a value 20 greater than iron (which itself is common and certainly not worth 5x copper).
- finally, my suspicion is that the values of steel and iron were made high to make the price of those weapons more balanced given their performance. The upshot is that most metals become almost meaningless (except as practice materials), unless of course you don't have iron locally. The equation I proposed allows iron and steel weapons/armour to remain valuable, while allowing decorative metals to be desirable in other applications.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 01:15:43 am by thompson »
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Quarque

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2017, 01:36:24 am »

The formula I suggest is essentially intrinsic value plus value added by labour, which is more realistic and would be easier to feed into economic models. The current system makes no sense at all from an economic standpoint.

Ahh now I get your point.

In that case however, I am afraid that the effect of the formula that you proposed would still be a heavy nerf to precious metals, even if it was not your intention. Because only the labour term is affected by the quality modifier. That means the difference in value between a masterwork platinum statue and a masterwork microcline statue would become negligible.

I would also like to point out that art prices are not a rational sum of material and labour cost, but based on intangible subjective factors.. most of the valuable goods in DF are artwork.

Edit to respond to your edit, about steel:
I disagree when you say steel is plentiful. First off, a majority of embark sites have no iron, so in the DF world iron is really scarce and fought over.
Second, the goblins can't make steel, they haven't figured it out. It is a cutting-edge technology in this world. It also requires two more ingredients, flux and coal, both of which may be hard to get locally even if you do have iron.

If we are looking at game balance rather than realism, please keep in mind that steel is not renewable and takes a lot of dwarf power and preparation to produce. Look at the value of renewables like masterwork pig tail socks and masterwork hen egg roast. Both of these are available in infinite amounts on any embark site. They are easily enough to buy out all merchants, once you have an experienced clothier / cook.
Really a player who uses steel to make statues is already wasting his resources, big time. It does not need to be further discouraged.

Ps I am sorry for the blunt tone, somehow that always happens on the internet. It is an interesting discussion.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 02:42:28 am by Quarque »
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Item value overhaul
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2017, 11:06:12 am »

In that case however, I am afraid that the effect of the formula that you proposed would still be a heavy nerf to precious metals, even if it was not your intention. Because only the labour term is affected by the quality modifier. That means the difference in value between a masterwork platinum statue and a masterwork microcline statue would become negligible.

We could adjust the constant multipliers of each term so that the instrinsic value term would be more important than the labor term, which would solve this problem.
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