Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 11

Author Topic: The Importance of Prejudice  (Read 10064 times)

Lovechild

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2017, 05:26:39 am »

A fantasy world generator in which everyone is the best of friends. Dwarves and elves and goblins sing happy songs together as they build stuff.

Well, yeah, as an option maybe. Would hate for that to be the default mode...
You know, the game doesn't currently have any prejudice mechanics. And yet, worlds created aren't exactly peaceful.
Logged
All Races Playable Mod - Minimal mod to play as any race in DF - Latest version for DF 0.44.07 and beyond

MCreeper

  • Bay Watcher
  • I'm the strongest!
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2017, 05:27:33 am »

No, no, no, there is enough of this idiocy and idiocy with this idiocy in real life. And
I'll just give out my two cents on this subject.

I'm against prejudice. DF is, first and foremost, a game. It's designed to be entertaining. Adding more depth makes a game more fun, but only up to a point. If you decide to play as a woman or a dark-skinned person or whatever, you wouldn't want to deal with this. I mean, it can get quite annoying after a while, and start to spoil your experience. In my opinion, adding prejudice would use up too much of Toady's time for too little a gain. Even if it could be turned off, I don't think Toady should spend time on this when he could be developing mythgen or boats.
Logged
Rest of the sigs
Again, we were meant to scout out the place, bribe the right people, get intel, sneak in, sneak out. We are currently somewhere beneath the crater, fumbling for gasmasks

dragdeler

  • Bay Watcher
  • Disdains the law
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2017, 10:25:41 am »

We allready have the personality trait "tolerant". And I think the problem is more about ALL the traits creating true incentives and being generally more "noticeable". Weird how one can get hung up on a topic, while one is trying to avoid exactly that, by stating the nuances of said topic. (nevermind that)

So for example: a same event (in this case a "mutiny") can easily have different catalysators; a foreign leader would often be subject to intolerance, whereas internal powerstruggles would usually be motivated by envy, greed and ambition etc.

I don't exactly know how far the game takes all that into account atm, but it has been stated in the talk that those arguments you have in adventurer mode, do effectively change minds. Concerning the decision making, at the moment, it sure feels like people get jobs according to their preferences, and act solely in their role as a professional. I don't know if that's all, but sometimes the game feels like it. Now if we could get to a point where those personality traits have their own importance, where they are able to occasionaly beat pragmatism, that should allow more complex biographies. Of course you can't build a biography without any memory, so grudges are an important factor too, but they should be just as as likely to be outweighed by more subjective motives than historical events. Some framework to spread ANY trait culturally/historically would be awesome.

In essence: it's a part of life and there are a lot of other traits that could counterweigh the tolerance trait. I feel like we would inflate that one thing, that could eventually be taken the wrong way, by premptively demonstrating the reluctance to touch it with a barge pole. I say don't let public opinion get in the way of my favourite game.
Logged

PlumpHelmetMan

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2017, 04:19:50 pm »

I honestly don't have strong opinions either way. Yes, I think prejudice would be an interesting thing to incorporate if Toady considers it worth his time (and if it's purely optional), but I think I'll also be able to live without it.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 06:04:20 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
Logged
It's actually pretty terrifying to think about having all of your fat melt off into grease because you started sweating too much.

VislarRn

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2017, 03:04:37 pm »

On the other hand, I can see how sex discrimination could just end up annoying. Spend 6 hours generating a world only to find everything much harder to do if you want to play your favorite female characters (or male if they're being discriminated against).
'Don't go out at night! There's a curfew'.
'I killed some bandits!' > 'Did you get your husband's permission first?'
Etc...
I don't know about others, but I find your example applied in game fascinating and likable. I don't believe this kind of detail would ever be applied though.

Imagine, you have to get things done, but people's first reaction is - no you can't because you are male elf or something. You can't hold position in court, you can't join the guild.
Now you have to find another ways, maybe get all male elves together and start some kind of opposition or revolutionary movement. Maybe you have to look around for a rumors about people who secretly deal with your kind and collaborate with them.

I call this kind of thing dys-empowerment fantasy. You have to start from lowest of the buttom. You have practically no rights and no hope. But coming out from this situation is actually much more satisfying in the end, because of perceived hopelessness in the beginning.

This kind of dys-empowerment fantasy is something I see lacking in modern games and it is unfortunate because always being empowered doesn't allow us to explore existential angst and insecurity in gaming situations.
I don't want those godly superpowers or divine rights. Sometimes I want my story narrative to emerge from complete melancholy and desperation.


EDIT: Another positive things that come with prejudices are possible cool political machinations. For example, in Byzantium it was common practice to mutilate people, because ruler had to represent gods image. That's why person with imperfect body was never seen as a threat to the throne.

Now this could open up some interesting potential narratives. Some character is mutilated, but still wants to claim the throne. Now you have 3 ways - hide your disability that carries cultural stigma, try to fix yourself or try to change prejudicial attitude. Maybe make it illegal for example.

On the other hand, you can also try to create new prejudices that try undermine your political opponents. If your rival is ginger, then spread rumors that gingers have no souls, etc...  :)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 03:34:06 pm by VislarRn »
Logged

Paxiecrunchle

  • Bay Watcher
  • I'm just here, because actually I don't know*shrug
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2017, 07:25:46 am »

PTW, I want to see if anyone has anything more to say about this.

Maximum Spin

  • Bay Watcher
  • [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE] [GOES_TO_ELEVEN]
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2017, 07:46:19 am »

I can see how having prejudice between, for instance, two human civs of differing skin colour would probably hit a bit TOO close to reality for most players to be comfortable with it.
I would explicitly want this and every other variation of prejudice that realistically simulated minds are capable of generating. I honestly can't imagine why someone would be uncomfortable with that, and I would probably judge someone for it a little! Broadly speaking, I agree with VislarRn. This would produce interesting stories. There's no reason to go around having feelings about it. As far as priority goes, prejudice should be an organic result of characters having complex beliefs and preferences and acting on them.

Personally, I'm for prejudice. Although this comes from the guy who found the supposedly "horrifying" DF stories such as Obok Meatgod... rather "meh"-inducing.
the guy
Wait, really?
... I guess it's just the "Kitty" thing, but I didn't see that coming. :P
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:48:12 am by Maximum Spin »
Logged

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2017, 07:50:27 am »

Personally, I'm for prejudice. Although this comes from the guy who found the supposedly "horrifying" DF stories such as Obok Meatgod... rather "meh"-inducing.
the guy
Wait, really?
... I guess it's just the "Kitty" thing, but I didn't see that coming. :P
[/quote]

Males can like cats too, you know.
Logged
It could well be the thing controlling the number of ducklings is the number of homosexual male ducks
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
If you are hosting a space game, message me, please.

Maximum Spin

  • Bay Watcher
  • [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE] [GOES_TO_ELEVEN]
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2017, 07:52:11 am »

Males can like cats too, you know.
I know I mean I know firsthand! but I would probably expect people to get that impression if I named myself Kitty on a forum. :P
Logged

SmileyMan

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2017, 03:45:46 am »

There's a fallacy in some of these arguments - we are projecting our real-world experience, where humans are the only sentient species, into a fantasy world where that is not the case.

If you lived in nightly terror of demon-worshipping immortal goblins raiding your village and abducting your children, how much hate and fear would you have left over for the bloke next door with darker skin?

Prejudice in the real world mostly has roots in a historical need to bring people together by establishing a common enemy - whether that need was for protection, aggressive expansion, or religious and political power.

Personally, I think it could add a real level of flavour to the world, especially if certain species have certain prejudices that others don't. For instance, humans could be the only sexist species, whereas elves could have a real problem with class. Dwarves could be entirely oblivious of gender but have constant religious schisms (this would explain why they keep heading off in groups of seven...)

This would be good regarding the spying and espionage gameplay - stoke up resentment in the elvish lower classes and supply them with powerful weapons, then let them assassinate their kings and queens without lifting a finger.
Logged
In a fat-fingered moment while setting up another military squad I accidentally created a captain of the guard rather than a militia captain.  His squad of near-legendary hammerdwarves equipped with high quality silver hammers then took it upon themselves to dispense justice to all the mandate breakers in the fortress.  It was quite messy.

MaGicBush

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2017, 04:42:30 pm »

I'll just give out my two cents on this subject.

I'm against prejudice. DF is, first and foremost, a game. It's designed to be entertaining. Adding more depth makes a game more fun, but only up to a point. If you decide to play as a woman or a dark-skinned person or whatever, you wouldn't want to deal with this. I mean, it can get quite annoying after a while, and start to spoil your experience. In my opinion, adding prejudice would use up too much of Toady's time for too little a gain. Even if it could be turned off, I don't think Toady should spend time on this when he could be developing mythgen or boats.

100% this. I disagree with adding prejudice to the game, and if it was added just something minor like species related is fine. I just don't want toady wasting a bunch of time on something a lot or I'd say even most people don't want.

Plus we hear about this crap enough irl and I play games to escape that for a short while. I'm tired of all of the PC police irl as are many others I'd say since trump won lol.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 04:48:50 pm by MaGicBush »
Logged

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2017, 09:29:35 pm »

DF is a SIMULATION. Nothing should stand in the way of a good simulation.
Logged
It could well be the thing controlling the number of ducklings is the number of homosexual male ducks
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
If you are hosting a space game, message me, please.

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2017, 10:14:53 pm »

Not sure who "most people" are, but without civs who hate each other for various reasons, mundane worlds are going to be pretty boring.

You know one of the reasons factions go to war with their neighbors is because of their  'godlessness' right now, don't you? And people spend their time complaining about those neighbors to whoever's listening because 'it's a problem'. That's called "prejudice". It's in the game already.
Logged

funkydwarf

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2017, 10:45:55 pm »

It seems people are assuming and talking about a few different things. I just want to point out, if it was random it might be prejudices against creatures (including humans) with hair or humans, dwarves,and/or elves with light skin or creatures that worship X deity. I saw a few people throw up dark skinned as an example as if people want real world cultural biases shoved into the game
. No one is talking about that.  It would probably be more like humans from civ 1 think humans from civ 2 are thieves cause early in history there was a war and a king took and artifact.Or maybe who knows . Or that civ/race didnt come help against a necromancer so they are cowards and not to be trusted so they double cross em back and not show up to help for them one day. or people that use magic are alpha and everyone else is scumm to serve them.  it would add flavor to each race that could impact gameplay and stories...

Toady always has such an interesting take on stuff, dont worry your pretty lil heads, if he thinks it needs a little of that there is probably a reason. As in something that interacts with those beliefs.

edit---besides from his quote it looks like there are no plans for this, and yeah something like this should only be done if toady saw a need for it to interact with other systems. definatly  shouldnt be shoehorned in JUST to cause strife if there is already strife kicking...

lastly , speaking to if it would be a bad or good thing, seeing prejudices form and why and seeing how dumb and harmful it is and the strife it can cause....sounds like there may be a few emergent lessons in there....but not worth it unless it comes up as a solution to something else for Toady


« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 10:52:30 pm by funkydwarf »
Logged

quekwoambojish

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2017, 09:29:45 am »

'Prejudice' against kobolds, demons, and goblins sounds realistic and rational...
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 11