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Author Topic: The Importance of Prejudice  (Read 8056 times)

Paxiecrunchle

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2017, 04:26:54 am »

From a dwarfs perspective sure....

Cathar

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2017, 06:04:37 am »

So ehm, my two cents about the game and prejudice :

I assume prejudice is a social and possibly hardcoded behavioral mechanism to easily distinguish friends and foes. I assume prejudice to be bad in a safe society, but most DF worlds are usually clusterfugs of !!fun!! in which being able to distinguish between ingroup and outgroup would be a valuable skill for collective and personal survival.

Prejudice as a mechanism

DF already simulates some sort of prejudice, with the use of values. People from different civilizations already have a harder time going with each other. Two humans from different civs won't get along as two humans of the same civ, because they have less in common, and this is furthered by ethic differences between races. Humans and elves won't get along, wars will spark, and should they meet they have a higher chance to argue and fight.

Prejudice as a tool

I think DF does a good job of simulating what a medieval murder investigation would look like. Each time I have a vampire in my fort, I look for people with different eyes or skin color. This may be not very PC, but people from other ethnicities that would join your fort on their own may have less than kind intentions and are the first on my suspect list, and have to go to makeshift trials to prove they are clean. To me this really looks like vanilla human behavior.

Not over generalizing prejudice

DF worlds are multicultural at this point. Dwarfs and humans know each other, civilizations interract with each others. Mercenaries from various civilizations will gladly work for foreign lords and become accepted in a community. When prejudice outlast its survival value and becomes a detriment (when you're under attack by hordes of goblins, you just don't care if the swordman next to you have taupe skin let's say), it's toned down in most societies.

Besides, foreigners that get integrated into societies for a long time have children who will take on the values of said societies, therefore reducing tensions with locals, leading to a progressive assimilation of foreign populations

On a final note

Civilizations sometimes have a peculiar take on tolerence. Some civs are generally more accepting than other, according to their worldgen. Being accepted by locals will therefore depend not only on the said locals but also on their cultural values.

TL;DR : From what I can see, prejudice is already simulated (lightly) by the game. I see no point in either making it a bigger deal than it is, nor to try and remove it. I want to see dwarves and elves having a frienemy relation, even if it's based on fantasy prejudice. I also like the idea that some human factions simply don't get along all the time, but I also don't want that to become a focus of the game. To me, it's already well simulated to the point it's present, but not tasteless

Edit :
'Prejudice' against kobolds, demons, and goblins sounds realistic and rational...

Yes and no, it depends on the context. Let's see a couple of goblins have went to a human fort and asked the local lord to stay to, for instance, make music. While the game will generate tensions between them and locals at first, their children would take on the values of the human civ. You add three generations, and the now goblin population is assimilated. Everyone know them, and is cool with them, as they are now a part of the social landscape. It's not totally unseen in DF (I saw that in my world) and I really like it this way.

I mean, given that context why would you hate them? You grew up with them, have go to their wedding, you drink together after work, and your children play with theirs. Prejudice past a certain point just would not make a lot of sense.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 06:27:05 am by Cathar »
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2017, 02:31:46 am »

So the consensus seems to be that the game is fine as it is, at least in this capacity?

Saraias

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2017, 08:28:23 am »

I'm OK with variations of the existing levels of prejudice based on cultural values present in DF such as going to war with elves in horror at eating the fallen; abhorring baby-snatching; followers of a god of volcanoes and fortresses being in conflict with the sept of the god of oceans and war; etc. These sorts of clashes can add narrative flavor and create stories that are compelling, for all that in play I like to sue for peace and usher in golden ages of cooperation and prosperity when possible. These sorts of prejudices are often horrible in our history. I have no interest in a game of such verisimilitude that I am reenacting the grotesque reality of the razing of Carthage, crusades, colonial alienation and extermination of other cultures, the holocaust, Shia-Sunni purges or any other similar example. An abstracted level that is not intimately realistic is fine.

I wonder at what lived experience people who desire a game modeling other forms of prejudice have. I am a member of a subpopulation routinely, and for many people acceptably, vilified by others and my peer group includes many people of different subpopulations similarly targeted. I've spent the past 30 years or so trying to do my part to create a safer and saner and more fundamentally decent society. In real life I already get to "play the game" of periodically wondering if getting caught out by myself with this or that group of people similar to past perpetrators is going to be another assault. I can't imagine ever playing a game where part of the alleged fun is remarking "wow, they really nailed how realistic the bigotry in this simulation is! Serious props for making this feel just like the real thing."
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KittyTac

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2017, 08:35:30 am »

I simply don't care as long as it's a detailed simulation.
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gnome

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2017, 12:42:29 pm »

I'm OK with variations of the existing levels of prejudice based on cultural values present in DF such as going to war with elves in horror at eating the fallen; abhorring baby-snatching; followers of a god of volcanoes and fortresses being in conflict with the sept of the god of oceans and war; etc. These sorts of clashes can add narrative flavor and create stories that are compelling, for all that in play I like to sue for peace and usher in golden ages of cooperation and prosperity when possible. These sorts of prejudices are often horrible in our history. I have no interest in a game of such verisimilitude that I am reenacting the grotesque reality of the razing of Carthage, crusades, colonial alienation and extermination of other cultures, the holocaust, Shia-Sunni purges or any other similar example. An abstracted level that is not intimately realistic is fine.

I wonder at what lived experience people who desire a game modeling other forms of prejudice have. I am a member of a subpopulation routinely, and for many people acceptably, vilified by others and my peer group includes many people of different subpopulations similarly targeted. I've spent the past 30 years or so trying to do my part to create a safer and saner and more fundamentally decent society. In real life I already get to "play the game" of periodically wondering if getting caught out by myself with this or that group of people similar to past perpetrators is going to be another assault. I can't imagine ever playing a game where part of the alleged fun is remarking "wow, they really nailed how realistic the bigotry in this simulation is! Serious props for making this feel just like the real thing."
I agree with everything you said.

Also I think it's a bit inane to assume that in a world where a multitude of intelligent species co-exist in the same world that the progression of bias would be the exact same as it has in the real world. So I see no reason to make it "exactly like reality" - and like you said I don't want the game going "no you can't go into THIS elf city because you have orangish gold skin instead of _______" - that's just... not fun? Bias based on cultural differences makes more sense, both in terms of simulation and gameplay imo.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2017, 12:46:50 pm »

I don't want the game going "no you can't go into THIS elf city because you have orangish gold skin instead of _______" - that's just... not fun?
I don't think anyone has suggested that the game would enforce prejudices directly. You should be imagining that entering the Racist Elf City will simply cause conflict, just like entering a city of people who hate you for any other reason would. You might prefer to sneak in or disguise yourself, as well.
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gnome

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2017, 02:15:15 pm »

I don't want the game going "no you can't go into THIS elf city because you have orangish gold skin instead of _______" - that's just... not fun?
I don't think anyone has suggested that the game would enforce prejudices directly. You should be imagining that entering the Racist Elf City will simply cause conflict, just like entering a city of people who hate you for any other reason would. You might prefer to sneak in or disguise yourself, as well.
So what, you smear paint on yourself? You'd still have that mechanic with cultural prejudice because I'm pretty sure civilizations in this game have a tendency to wear the same type of thing - I just think the motivations behind it sound misguided. I personally don't find that sort of prejudice inherently believable when right down the street from racist elves there are entirely different species of things they would probably be quicker to have a prejudice against (goblins who are literally led by demons etc.). I don't think we need to extend that prejudice to very specific physical features like ear length/skin color/eye color, I think that's denoting an attitude towards this type of thing in that it's a necessary aspect of cultural progression that all intelligent lifeforms may go through. Being that we are the only intelligent lifeforms we know in real life, we have no basis for which to place that assumption - I get that fantasy and sci fi realities often exist to reflect aspects of our own but usually that's to invoke a sense of social commentary and thoughtfulness.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 02:21:10 pm by gnome »
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VislarRn

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2017, 05:57:38 pm »

People have so many prejudices against prejudices...

The importance of prejudice lies in fact that it is mostly based in some kind of historical narrative. Rejecting prejudice means that you don't allow historical events to shape up current attitudes.

For example - when there are two groups of people who are let's say, mostly blue and green eyed and war erupts between them, then this is going to be a historical event that feeds prejudice against eye color afterwards. Individuals who don't use any historical narrative to shape their current attitudes just doesn't feel right (unless we are talking about race of robots here).
That's why prejudices are something that actually render historical events important, making them echo their presence over hundreds or even thousands of years through historical memory.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 05:59:37 pm by VislarRn »
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gnome

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2017, 06:54:05 pm »

Nvm
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 07:26:14 pm by gnome »
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2017, 08:44:23 pm »

Nvm
What were you actually planning on saying?

gnome

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2017, 08:47:01 pm »

Nvm
What were you actually planning on saying?
The same thing I said in the previous post. No need to be repetitive. Opting out of this conversation, I said my piece.
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Cathar

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2017, 04:22:36 am »

I think you're on point tbh. The game already have a mechanism to simulate cultural discomfort ; it's the cultural value system. Even if someone look different, but is born and raised in X society, people from that society will be comfortable with them.

For the "realism" argument, one have to take into account societies in DF have 300 people tops. Villages are small, forts are not that big. Everyone inside knows everyone, and you won't have segregated minorities in societies this small.

To me, extending the prejudice system would be tasteless, a bit unrealistic due to the size of the communities, and would not add much as it is already simulated by the cultural value system.

I think it's fine as it is.

Edit; In the event of a war that would oppose, let's say blue eyes with green eyes dudes, the cultural difference that would lead to a war would also, in a interpersonnel level, generate discomfort. If you want to add the effects of the war on the already present cultural discomfort, you will create an endless loop of hate that will make peace unreachable by any means. That mechanism will then require means to be tempered down to achieve a level of realism again...and I'm more excited about the M&M update than trying to fix something that already somehow works
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 04:53:10 am by Cathar »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2017, 06:09:21 am »

300? The largest sites have populations of around 10,000.
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KittyTac

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Re: The Importance of Prejudice
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2017, 06:16:10 am »

300? The largest sites have populations of around 10,000.

LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG. Maybe that person only plays in small worlds like me.
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