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Author Topic: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress  (Read 4480 times)

krisslanza

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[43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« on: October 04, 2017, 02:33:40 pm »

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Koakuma Fortress is something I've worked on and off on for some years now. This represents the newest incarnation of the project!
For the unaware, Koakuma is a minor character from the japanese danmaku game, Touhou Project. While she is probably just a singular individual in Touhou, for the purposes of this, she is now an entire race! For reasons.

Features
- New playable civ: Koakuma
+ Koakumas have inherently higher attributes (physical and mental) then other races
+ Features a unique 'mana' industry based upon the five elements: fire, water, earth, metal and wood. Also has the extra two sun and moon.
- Unable to create 'Dwarven Steel'. Former iron-producing ores now make 'pig iron' instead, which has to go through the traditional steel making process to make 'iron'. Dwarven Steel is only from dwarves!
- Due to their demonic nature, the Koakuma race is completely unable to work with cotton candy or use it in anyway at this time.

Mana Industry
For the moment, this is focused around eight 'Altar' buildings, one for each element as well as one generic altar. The basic process as of right now is as follows:
Altar of Mana produces 'unattuned' mana, which is then taken to an elemental altar to be attuned to that element. Mana gems are considered rough gems without any value and take no material to make. All the altars and jobs they offer require the alchemy labor to be done!

As of now, there is only a few uses for these though, I'm looking for suggestions on future uses.
Spoiler: Mana recipes (click to show/hide)

Roadmap
- More things for the mana industry
- An alchemy industry
- There's been rumors of small, drunken little onis...

This is still heavily a WIP, but I think its playable enough as it is. Do let me know about any possible suggestions or bugs!
(Can you tell I'm bad at making a nice mod post?)

AzyWng

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2017, 02:46:49 pm »

As a Touhou fan, I instantly approve.

I wonder if it'd be possible to create entire civilizations out of other characters...

EDIT: I think the plural of "oni" is "oni" in the same way the plural of "deer" is "deer",  but I'm not 100% on that.
 
DOUBLE SPOILER EDIT: Apparently both "onis" and "oni" are fine.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 02:56:52 pm by AzyWng »
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krisslanza

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2017, 02:48:29 pm »

As a Touhou fan, I instantly approve.

I wonder if it'd be possible to create entire civilizations out of other characters...

As long as you have the sprite work, not too hard... I thought of making Koakuma and Suika into a single 'civ', but there isn't anyway to make it so you can actually make different sprites within a single race still. There was the idea of a 'Youkai' civ consisting of Koakuma, Suika and Fairies though at one point!

Fleeting Frames

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2017, 11:02:45 pm »

Obviously(?), water+earth (+cinnabar?) could yield Mercury (Poison).

But that's not really an actual industry, hm, fitting though syndromes may be. 

Dwarf fortress already has plenty of overlaps in industry outputs, though one could change things around, cull, so that bone, blood, ash and gem-based industries (what's with mana being rough gem) are more versatile than stone, glass and wood ones.

But for things that are completely uncovered and potentially useful in dwarven industries....(Caveat: Just brainstorming regardless of how fitting they are.)

Related idea: I don't know if it is possible, but it'd be fitting for koakuma if you could tie secrets or prerequisites for things to make to scholar system. On the one hand, discoveries take years to make in it, and I'd guess based on nothing that you can't embark with someone knowing the secrets. On the other hand, a single well-learned petitioner could kinda shortcut it.

At the very least, I think the civ ought to have a bit to do with books.


Now, on to relative weaknesses, as a civ that plays like usual, expect having more opportunities, doesn't really mandate style changes...


Personally I've never pictured Koakuma wearing metal covering armour (though this is true of almost every character I know). Making using it less tenable could range from as simple as bonus healing and learning rate to dodging and malus to armor user to full-blown mismatched size with civilized races, no reactions to produce and inability to learn how to use it.


For solid weaponry, I think Koakuma uses mostly knives, with rest of stage having needles as well for supplement, though they're nonstandard knives in that it is always multiple attacks - maybe possibly combined range/melee(/ammo) weapons with high attack rate and unpenalized multiattacks. Depending on possibly clay and where you go with the industries she has, it'd might be possible to limit axes and picks only to trade and siege (and if koakuma is made smol, only accessible to, say, dwarves and humans who petition to join fort).


In terms of personality, hm. Slipping into oni territory, perhaps becoming more rowdy and brave/foolhardy the more koakumas are near? Eh, doesn't really fit. Tourist inclinations would make bit of sense, especially given Makai, but then you get armored Koakumas in sieges.

Arcvasti

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2017, 11:17:46 pm »

PTWing this because it seems interesting. I actually opened up Bay12 immediately after replaying EoSD again, which was quite the coincidence.

Suggestions:

-With enough gems and rare materials, you could make a philosophers stone. This could grant magic powers/immortality to a user or you could use it in a workshop. My idea for what the Philosophers Stone workshop would do[Based vaguely on one of Putnam's mod ideas] is duplicate any item, with a light transaction cost, probably in mana gems. I actually think I have said philospher stone reaction for one of my incomplete mods lying around somewhere, if that would be at all helpful. I can't remember if it works correctly, though...
-Moon could perhaps do something with werecreature curses?
-Sun could instantly grow crops, maybe when combined with wood?
-Fire and water could produce a special drink that induces berserk?
-Wood and water could make something kind of like netherwood[IE: A wood with a fixed low temparature]?
-Metal and wood could make ironwood, a stronger type of wood useful for lightweight weapons or armour
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krisslanza

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2017, 10:54:41 am »

Obviously(?), water+earth (+cinnabar?) could yield Mercury (Poison).

But that's not really an actual industry, hm, fitting though syndromes may be. 

Dwarf fortress already has plenty of overlaps in industry outputs, though one could change things around, cull, so that bone, blood, ash and gem-based industries (what's with mana being rough gem) are more versatile than stone, glass and wood ones.

But for things that are completely uncovered and potentially useful in dwarven industries....(Caveat: Just brainstorming regardless of how fitting they are.)

Related idea: I don't know if it is possible, but it'd be fitting for koakuma if you could tie secrets or prerequisites for things to make to scholar system. On the one hand, discoveries take years to make in it, and I'd guess based on nothing that you can't embark with someone knowing the secrets. On the other hand, a single well-learned petitioner could kinda shortcut it.

At the very least, I think the civ ought to have a bit to do with books.


Now, on to relative weaknesses, as a civ that plays like usual, expect having more opportunities, doesn't really mandate style changes...


Personally I've never pictured Koakuma wearing metal covering armour (though this is true of almost every character I know). Making using it less tenable could range from as simple as bonus healing and learning rate to dodging and malus to armor user to full-blown mismatched size with civilized races, no reactions to produce and inability to learn how to use it.


For solid weaponry, I think Koakuma uses mostly knives, with rest of stage having needles as well for supplement, though they're nonstandard knives in that it is always multiple attacks - maybe possibly combined range/melee(/ammo) weapons with high attack rate and unpenalized multiattacks. Depending on possibly clay and where you go with the industries she has, it'd might be possible to limit axes and picks only to trade and siege (and if koakuma is made smol, only accessible to, say, dwarves and humans who petition to join fort).


In terms of personality, hm. Slipping into oni territory, perhaps becoming more rowdy and brave/foolhardy the more koakumas are near? Eh, doesn't really fit. Tourist inclinations would make bit of sense, especially given Makai, but then you get armored Koakumas in sieges.

Thanks for the thoughts and such! Some of these are some pretty interesting ideas, although whenever I could figure out how to do some of them is another story. Danmaku being implemented in some way might be interesting, but danmaku is also an inherently non-lethal system designed for Gensokyo and I'm not sure how well that'd carry over to something like Dwarf Fortress. I mean, we want to see things get pulped and smashed into gorey bits yeah?

I'm not actually sure if the Secrets system even works in Fortress Mode to be honest. I do want to make the Koakuma civ deal with books more though, it just wasn't something I had immediately planned since the book-keeping industry is a bit more involved and new, so I'm still not familiar with it.

As a civ, Koakuma already has incredibly high Regeneration and Disease Resistance, but I think for them to 'get away' without using metal armor I'd probably have to mod their actual tissues to be stronger. Which I might consider, since youkai/demons are supposed to be pretty tough... on the other hand, this means undead Koakuma are even more terrifying.

PTWing this because it seems interesting. I actually opened up Bay12 immediately after replaying EoSD again, which was quite the coincidence.

Suggestions:

-With enough gems and rare materials, you could make a philosophers stone. This could grant magic powers/immortality to a user or you could use it in a workshop. My idea for what the Philosophers Stone workshop would do[Based vaguely on one of Putnam's mod ideas] is duplicate any item, with a light transaction cost, probably in mana gems. I actually think I have said philospher stone reaction for one of my incomplete mods lying around somewhere, if that would be at all helpful. I can't remember if it works correctly, though...
-Moon could perhaps do something with werecreature curses?
-Sun could instantly grow crops, maybe when combined with wood?
-Fire and water could produce a special drink that induces berserk?
-Wood and water could make something kind of like netherwood[IE: A wood with a fixed low temparature]?
-Metal and wood could make ironwood, a stronger type of wood useful for lightweight weapons or armour


I was planning to make the "capstone" of the mana industry a philospher's stone actually already! I was just unsure what to make it really do yet. I was thinking some kind of workshop based around transmutation though. A possible issue I can see is it would make a really cluttered menu depending on how many things I bother to code in that can be transmuted - which is an issue since, technically, the Stone should be capable of doing the impossible like lead into gold, so in theory you could turn anything into anything but...

I'm unsure if I can actually make anything that can mess with werecreature curses. I know I, personally, would like that because those darn werecreatures keep infecting someone I lose track of, then suddenly there's a dozen of them murdering everyone... The sun+wood idea is interesting, but I think if that was possible, it'd probably require DFHack and I'd have to figure out how DFHack works. The special drink is an interesting idea, I hadn't considered making things like that via mana industry. Not sure if inducing berserk is a good idea in the context of Fortress Mode (as I think you'd have no control over who could drink it), but maybe I could use the mana industry to make special drinks that are just valuable or something.

The wood ideas are interesting though.

Thanks for all the feedback and posts though! Sorry it took me a bit to respond to it all. I will probably hold off on any actual updates until the newest version of DF drops, because I THINK its supposed to be pretty soon from everything I've been hearing?

Fleeting Frames

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2017, 03:49:15 pm »

Quote
Danmaku being implemented in some way might be interesting, but danmaku is also an inherently non-lethal system designed for Gensokyo and I'm not sure how well that'd carry over to something like Dwarf Fortress. I mean, we want to see things get pulped and smashed into gorey bits yeah?
Danmaku is supposed to be nonlethal*? I suppose could one could attach a stunning or knockout/heal (to be appropraitely harmful versus inorganics) syndrome to it. Then could walk over the knocked out goblin and pulp them.


* Bit doubtful about knives and nuclear fireballs and Marisa turning into a comet is flat out called as not danmaku, expect nobody really minds.

Quote
I'm not actually sure if the Secrets system even works in Fortress Mode to be honest.
You can discover parts of knowledge tree by pondering in libraries (takes about half a decade on average by my estimate). You can learn secrets of life and death from necromancers' books on that topic.

As far as I know, creating new knowledge trees would require hackery, and preexisting knowledge trees are at least included in string dump. I've yet to science the impact of preexisting high skill (such as with mechanics) on making discoveries, either.  Then just can track if somebody knows some knowledge (stored under historical figure data, I think) in fort and if so allow (them) to progress the tech tree.

Non-innate secret knowers will only seek out learning secrets with goal of immortality.

Innate secret knowers can write them down, though. A classic example is dragon writing down the secrets of fire.

Haven't really looked into modding books, alas; though their actual vanilla gameplay impact is rather small.
Quote
As a civ, Koakuma already has incredibly high Regeneration and Disease Resistance, but I think for them to 'get away' without using metal armor I'd probably have to mod their actual tissues to be stronger. Which I might consider, since youkai/demons are supposed to be pretty tough... on the other hand, this means undead Koakuma are even more terrifying.
Well, in worldgen battles, currently gear isn't simulated, so if you were worrying about that don't. They'd fight just as well naked.


In fort mode...I think it is important to not flatten a sense of progression⁑, so if tissues get stronger that might be better to be gradual, maybe linked to magic use.

Alternatively, could improve their regeneration to limb-regrowing levels.

...Tbh, this is seems like matter of taste on where one imagines the Koa be on the scale of "dodgy resurrector" to "tanky invulnerable", i.e. do you imagine one could block a sharp axe swing with bare hand or would it cut away the hand like normal. Do what feels best, or even separate the koa into multiple castes if needed.

⁑ Sense of progression is not provided for me by multi-step chains like soap or steel making, though.

Quote
A possible issue I can see is it would make a really cluttered menu depending on how many things I bother to code in that can be transmuted - which is an issue since, technically, the Stone should be capable of doing the impossible like lead into gold, so in theory you could turn anything into anything but...
Or really general menu, if you make it kinda like jeweller or craftsdwarf and require stockpile links to control inputs.

Though there's perhaps the possibility to add reactions on the fly/use a manager(-like) menu.

Quote
I'm unsure if I can actually make anything that can mess with werecreature curses.
Werecreature curses require an intelligent not-not-living non-supernatural creature who doesn't have any of the default three preexisting curse types or is not already under a different species/caste transformation syndrome.

I don't know if you can have interaction effect: remove syndrome, though at least you can prevent it being applied in the first place.

Quote
The sun+wood idea is interesting, but I think if that was possible, it'd probably require DFHack and I'd have to figure out how DFHack works.
Uh.

Oh.

Yes.

...

Setting remaining growtime on a plant on farm plot to 0 is really simple, as far as coding scripts intended to be run with dfhack goes, but coding new scripts is still beyond typical end user of dfhack who just runs and maybe sometimes uses prepackaged scripts.

Now, something on that scale is something I may be willing to research into how to and help write. The "create a new knowledge tree" I mentioned above is on the level of "I don't even know if anybody has managed to tweak preexisting one" level, though I certainly have only barely looked into modding. (With mere glances, I know that warmist's df-mini-mods has done some really impressive stuff from the point of dynamic ease and modularity, for instance.)

Quote
Not sure if inducing berserk is a good idea in the context of Fortress Mode (as I think you'd have no control over who could drink it),
You could station a military squad into a room without waterskins and waterskin stockpile, brew the drink, have them equip and put the drink in waterskins, then watch them spontaneously start killing rest of your citizens next time they get a lil' thirsty.

Quote
Thanks for all the feedback and posts though! Sorry it took me a bit to respond to it all. I will probably hold off on any actual updates until the newest version of DF drops, because I THINK its supposed to be pretty soon from everything I've been hearing?

Toady has updated estimate from "october release is guaranteed" to "october release is 50/50", so it's probably going to be somewhere in november-december (and, jeez, I remember when I predicted a july release). Few weeks longer for bugfixes and catching up.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 03:55:30 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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cyberTripping

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2017, 10:33:47 pm »


Danmaku is supposed to be nonlethal*?

I remember reading about how one of the boundaries Yukari can alter is the threshold of danmaku being lethal or not, and that they generally are not

anyways I remember seeing this mod a good while back, interested in seeing its return.
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Arcvasti

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2017, 10:36:14 pm »

To clarify, the "Using sun to instagrow things" suggestion I made would really be more of a workshop that accepts seeds and outputs the grown plant with some kind of transaction cost.
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MCreeper

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2017, 03:28:24 am »

Is there any way to implement danmaku except "throw single projectiles with natural ability" and "spawn ton of creatures that throw ton of bruising the muscle projectiles than die"? Though i see second being just a little bit wonky.  :P
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2017, 08:51:18 am »

Yeah, there's some quite flexible AoE/multitarget/multitarget with max N targets syndrome/casting trigger scripting options. i.e. hit 1 target and then hit max 5 targets around them in an X shape in 4 tile radius; such things.

Implementing spell card patterns seems like it'd be theoretically doable for someone with the know-how, at least. Tricky and imbalanced, though.

There might also be options like "shoot projectiles that shoot projectiles" by using item stacking and shotgunning, maybe, but I'm not sure arrows work like that. Might just become little "less than or equal to" symbols, or get stuck in wounds without shotgunning anything. Otherwise, it'd fit in with all the knives Koa throws around.

Familiars is nice idea, only thing I'd worry about is cluttering up dead units, but that can be fixed by them not being actual proper units or putting fix/dead-units on repeat. I have no idea how syndrome-capable vermin are?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 08:56:04 am by Fleeting Frames »
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krisslanza

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2017, 11:04:55 am »


Danmaku is supposed to be nonlethal*?

I remember reading about how one of the boundaries Yukari can alter is the threshold of danmaku being lethal or not, and that they generally are not

anyways I remember seeing this mod a good while back, interested in seeing its return.

Rather, from my understanding, Danmaku was created in the 'old days' as a means to resolve disputes without, well, either side having to die. The concern had always been, for youkai, that if the Hakurei Shrine Maiden was to fight them they couldn't really fight at their fullest - because they might kill her, and that could have dire consequences for Gensokyo. So the spell card system, and thus danmaku, was invented as an alternative where neither side can kill the other. It basically gives a way for humans and youkai to fight on (theoretically) equal footing, so a youkai also can't just run up and rip your throat out or something.

And yeah! I was getting back into DF, because one can never quit DF, and I needed to update my mod, soooo...

To clarify, the "Using sun to instagrow things" suggestion I made would really be more of a workshop that accepts seeds and outputs the grown plant with some kind of transaction cost.

Ooooh. I hadn't even considered such a thing was possible. That could be a thing I suppose, although that might fit what "Wood" actually symbolizes. Sun and Moon are odd ones, since technically the five main elements are fire, water, earth, wood and metal.

Yeah, there's some quite flexible AoE/multitarget/multitarget with max N targets syndrome/casting trigger scripting options. i.e. hit 1 target and then hit max 5 targets around them in an X shape in 4 tile radius; such things.

Implementing spell card patterns seems like it'd be theoretically doable for someone with the know-how, at least. Tricky and imbalanced, though.

There might also be options like "shoot projectiles that shoot projectiles" by using item stacking and shotgunning, maybe, but I'm not sure arrows work like that. Might just become little "less than or equal to" symbols, or get stuck in wounds without shotgunning anything. Otherwise, it'd fit in with all the knives Koa throws around.

Familiars is nice idea, only thing I'd worry about is cluttering up dead units, but that can be fixed by them not being actual proper units or putting fix/dead-units on repeat. I have no idea how syndrome-capable vermin are?

I want to say familiars are possible, as the Succubus Fortress mod does something similar. I'd have to look into how that one does it though, and I imagine it still does include DFHack.

Which I cannot remember if I packaged in the game by default or not. I play with LNP myself, so I have it but I don't think I packaged it.

Fleeting Frames

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2017, 03:25:43 am »

Ultimately, small fragile pets with rare/high timeout nuisance attacks might be perhaps best way to model them, given I don't think there's any that strongly under Koa's control. OTOH, they're something you summon, so MCreeper may have the right idea.

And well, it's pretty obvious by the various indicators such as that you're running dfhack. Otherwise, if you meant succubus fort, I guess you'll have to check the raws or do an impromptu worldgen.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 03:27:14 am by Fleeting Frames »
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Patchy

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2017, 11:13:23 am »

PTW
Its been awhile but nice to see this mod going again. I may have to fire up the ole df too sometime and give the updated mod a try.
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krisslanza

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Re: [43.05] Koakuma Fortress
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2017, 11:32:11 pm »

Ultimately, small fragile pets with rare/high timeout nuisance attacks might be perhaps best way to model them, given I don't think there's any that strongly under Koa's control. OTOH, they're something you summon, so MCreeper may have the right idea.

And well, it's pretty obvious by the various indicators such as that you're running dfhack. Otherwise, if you meant succubus fort, I guess you'll have to check the raws or do an impromptu worldgen.

Wasn't sure if I had or not! I had originally packed it with LNP, since I use that myself, but I didn't ask the creator of that so I decided against it...

PTW
Its been awhile but nice to see this mod going again. I may have to fire up the ole df too sometime and give the updated mod a try.

Thanks!

Toady's latest report seems the next version might be soon... we'll see I suppose!
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