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Author Topic: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one  (Read 1657 times)

hostergaard

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What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« on: October 09, 2017, 06:48:00 am »

So I watched the talk toady had about his myth generator and how it affects magic and it hit me that it should affect the origin of gods.

See what makes a god a god and what is its source of power? Here is the interesting part, there is no singular answer. Abrahamic faiths define a singular god that is all powerful and derives it power from itself. Many native populations have nature spirits and gods that derive their power from nature (Elves anyone?) or as part of a  greater spirit. Buddhism is more spiritual where gods are more powerful spirits that is part of a greater force.

Or take gods from literature; D&D have many layers of gods and there is many ways that a god can come to exist, but the primary one that you interact with derive their power from their followers. The more followers the more power. Or Warhammer where gods arise from actions of living being, the eldar who became so decadent that their decadence gave birth to a god. Their power is not as much derived from the number of followers as it is from how many engage in the act that is their domain.

So I find that it would be very interesting if DF procedurally generatest the origins of gods and from what they derive their power from. And mind, there might multiple types of origins for gods in one world and sources of their power.

So why is this interesting? Well, in generating the world this would allow for gods come into being during history or to disappear and let these events affect the world accordingly. Furthermore it gives and imperative and motivation to gods and their actions. A god whose power is derived from the number of followers will seek to get more followers. A god whose domain is a natural site will seek to protect or expand this site. A god whose power is from other beings acting in a certain way will seek to promote this act and make beings do it. Note that this may not necessarily be straightforward. A god of death may not seek to see as many death as possible, either because it will cause less deaths in the future or maybe because he is more concerned with people dying properly when their time is due and thus he will seek to combat all maner of undead creatures that cheat dead.

It also make fake and real gods interesting as in some world some gods are strictly real and some not, but in a world where gods arise from belief in them the question of them being real is moot; if they have a critical mass of followers they become real.

And it also allow cults of dead gods that seek to revive them. Or cults that seeks to stop or kill gods. Or create gods.

More is, as a player you can have the ambition to become a god (or kill/create/revive one). But this will require you to first of all to understand gods and what makes a god a god and where they derive their power to make a guess at how to become one(if possible). For example seeking out books or slaps in vaults that may reveal hints at this and whatever such a thing is possible in this world. This create an entire sub game where they player spend time researching and seeking out info about gods.

And this is not just limited to gods. This question can be asked about many other entities. What makes said entity that entity. Like werewolfs, angels, demigods, demons, vampires, necromancers or any other things. Generating an origin and source of power allows a much more interesting and uniqe world.

Of course, for well established things one should be careful not to deviate too much from established lore. Gods have many origins. But is it a vampire if drinks tears and you become one by befriending one (See my "We want trumpets" post)?

Anyway, much to be said, but the essence of the suggestion is generate during myth generations what makes a entity and entity (like gods), where it derive its power and how one can become or stop being said entity.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 07:40:49 am by hostergaard »
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KittyTac

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2017, 06:52:00 am »

Would make for good !!SCIENCE!! and general fun.
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hostergaard

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2017, 07:05:15 am »

Thanks!

And another thing is one would also define what form(s) a god takes and where. A nature spirit may not take a physical form but work trough animals a short of subconscious mind. Or it may be an actual giant tree. Or it may be an awesome animal that only appears under specific condition.Or if its a spiritual force alla the force it may not take any directly controlled form but act trough who can use it powers or create an extremely powerful being that exemplify it but is autonomous (like Anakin bringing balance to the force and all that). Or they may be gods like D&D gods. Maybe they can take physical form anywhere at will. Maybe they can only reside physicaly in heaven or hell and act trough their believers in material world. Maybe they can create much weaker avatars in the real world (or as strong if given conditions and rituals are met). Maybe they can only appear in certain areas in certain forms. Maybe they are huge and their death forms a moon or a land mass. (Think Lorkhan from elder scrolls) Maybe said land mass or moon allows certain magic. Maybe you can use the body of a dead god for something. Maybe you can revive it. Maybe create awesome artifacts. Or become a god.

Gods and their form(s) would have a great impact on the world.

Many possibilities.

Edit:

Also, consider true and false gods and various pantheons. A given world would be created in a specific way, eg there is one single myth that is true. But despite that there might multiple true religions and pantheons of gods with overlapping domains. Two cultures or species may have their own separate sets of gods (pantheons) that may be real or false. Or they may have different pantheons/religion that consist of the same gods but due to sepate values, beliefs and understandings they may see them differently. One pantheon, like an elvish one, would define all types of destruction of nature as evil and its promotion as good.
Thus their good gods promote nature and evil destroy it. But in another, like dwarfs (who like industry) the same gods may be good instead of evil and vice versa. Or perhaphs they have entirely separate gods and there may be extra-pantheon warfare or cooperation according to values.

And there may be multiple gods of the same domain, both in separate pantheons but also within the same religion and pantheon. It may because there is one greater god of a domain that delegate separate parts of the the domain to minor gods ala D&D. Or they may of same domain but different understanding of it. Like mentioned in other comment where we could have two gods of deaths, one seek to see as many death as possible while the other seeks to see as many living being as possible as this would create more death or maybe is concerned more with people dying proberly at their given time. These two gods may be in direct conflict in each other, both if they are in same domain or separate. This would then allow players to take "quests" from gods.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 07:39:20 am by hostergaard »
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LordFreezer

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2017, 06:46:32 am »

As a Pratchett reader and Black and White player, I'm a huge supporter for the belief = power concept.  It would be great to have the player slay gods by cutting down their followers, or achieve demigod-hood by destroying powerful creatures across the world (the sort of thing that happens in mythology).

Edit:  To be clear, I would like the belief = power concept to be one option of many, than a definite setting.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 06:03:39 pm by LordFreezer »
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Quarque

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2017, 11:07:13 am »

Being a god is mostly about having a beard and having anger issues. Starting out as a dwarf gets you most of the way there.
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Thundercraft

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2017, 07:15:59 am »

Sometimes a deity becomes or can become something different. Sometimes, they can shift into different forms. Parvati is the Hindu goddess of fertility, love and devotion; as well as of divine strength and power. But she has several aspects. One of these is Kali, a ferocious destroyer of evil forces.

In The Elder Scrolls, Trinimac used to be one of the most powerful Aldmeri deities, the champion of the High Elven pantheon, encompassing the ideals of strength, honor, and unity. But he was defeated by the Daedric Prince Boethiah. According to legend, he was eaten by Boethiah. The resulting dung was animated and so Trinimac was transformed into the Daedric Prince Malacath. The transformation of Trinimac seemed to affect his followers. They used to be Mer (like elves), but were suddenly transformed into what became known as Orcs.

There are some cases where a deity splits into separate entities. On the Forgotten Realms wikia, in the Ishtar article, under Relationships:
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Ishtar was born from the goddess Inanna. Once they were the same being, but as Inanna's people grew more civilized, her pantheon split in two, with new aspects of the older gods becoming entities in their own right.

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of a split in a deity's followers possibly leading to a split in the deity. If possible, I would think this should be unusual and only under certain conditions.

.
So I find that it would be very interesting if DF procedurally generatest the origins of gods and from what they derive their power from. And mind, there might multiple types of origins for gods in one world and sources of their power.

Typically, wouldn't gods arise from other gods? Look to mythology. In most pantheons, they have children, just as mortals have children. Though, sometimes, there are differences.

Venus was born from the sea after Jupiter castrated his father Uranus and the blood fell to the sea. And I seem to recall other cases where a god was born from the blood, tears or body parts of another.

Frequently, gods would have mortal lovers. Zeus, in particular, was known for this. Also, as I recall, some gods have had children by non-humans. The Norse story of Slipneir, the eight-legged horse, comes to mind.

When a god takes a mortal lover, the resulting children may be demigods or at least above-average mortals. These children tended to become heroes or otherwise important historical figures. Frequently, they died tragically. Sometimes, though, the gods (frequently the parent) would have them ascend to godhood. This might be done through an item, such as consuming magical ambrosia or similar. Or, it might be done through divine intervention.

A good example would be Hercules. The son of Zeus and a mortal woman, he had god-like strength. When he died due to the poison of the Hydra's blood, his body was burned. But, through Zeus' apotheosis, Hercules rose to Olympus.

Obviously, to interact with mortals on a direct level (such as making love) usually requires either physical manifestation or allowing the mortal into the presence of the divine (a way to Olympus, Asgard or whatever).

Another possibility is for a deity to possess a mortal's body, often temporarily. The possessed is called an "avatar". This was done several times in D&D, particularly in Forgotten Realms. Such a possession is often with the host's permission or even invitation. Often, the possessed is a devout follower. Sometimes, the possessed is a priest or priestess.

(On a related note, see Transformation of the Possessed for a trope on how the body may be transformed to resemble the possessor and Possession Burnout for how possession may have consequences.)

I'm reminded of a chapter in the "GATE: Thus the JSDF Fought There" manga where the goddess Hardy posseses the body of Lelei. In this setting, most mortals possessed by a deity would die in the attempt. It takes someone with an exceptional mind to survive. In compensation for borrowing Lelei's body, Hardy has her hair cut. This hair has divine properties, making it akin to an artifact: It can be shaped into whatever magical device is desired, though the choice is permanent.

Of course, there are many accounts of avatars in religious texts and mythology, too. Though, this is not usually possession. Often, the avatar is a direct manifestation of the deity born into flesh.

Anyway, I am fond of the idea of enabling the player's hero to, through certain deeds, either acquire an item like ambrosia to achieve godhood or impress and win the favor of deities to the point that they eventually bestow godhood upon them. Of course, this should be an extremely rare occurrence which is quite difficult to achieve, making the success of this a noteworthy achievement for Adventure Mode.

Also, I feel that it should be possible to win such an extreme degree of favor with deities through means other than (in addition to) acts of heroism. I am reminded of the story of Ye'Cind, the elven master bard in the Greyhawk D&D setting, and how he became a god:

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Ye'Cind became so renowned that he was called before the Seldarine, the fraternity of elven gods, to perform at the court of the great god Corellon Larethian. That night he could do no wrong; his performance was absolutely flawless. Corellon was so moved that he transformed the minstrel, making him as androgynous and perfect as the gods themselves, a newly minted demigod.

I suppose another possibility may be for a mortal to obtain a particularly powerful magical artifact and/or perform a certain ritual in a certain place. And I seem to recall it being implied in certain fantasy stories or sourcebooks that (an immortal or demigod?) obtaining enough devout followers might eventually lead to becoming a deity. Maybe it would require a combination of all three?

Thing is, there are many stories of the gods becoming quite upset at a mere mortal attempting to reach their domain, aspire to godhood, or otherwise behave very arrogantly. 'How dare a mortal, a mere worm, think itself the equal of the gods who rule over them!' There are stories in modern fiction which resemble that of the fate of the Tower of Babylon - mortals punished for trying to reach the heavens.

How about the story of the Kingpriest of Istar and the Cataclysm in the Dragonlance setting?

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...the Kingpriest grew to believe he was a god, and his hubris called down the wrath of the true gods. Their power was seen in the Cataclysm, in which the gods threw down a fiery mountain upon the temple in Istar. The First Cataclysm destroyed the Empire of Istar, sending it to the bottom of the ocean. As the waters covered it, the Blood Sea of Istar was formed.

The Thirteen Warnings made before the Cataclysm were interesting. Among these events:

  • The true clerics left the land for the realm of the gods beyond. This night became known as the Night of Doom.
  • The Durro Jolithas, the Tower of the Temple of the Kingpriest dedicated to Kiri-Jolith, was destroyed by a whirlwind.
  • In Solamnia, no fires would burn.
  • In the elven kingdom of Silvanesti, trees wept blood.
  • In the Khalkist Mountains, dormant volcanoes became active again.

During the Night of Doom, were those clerics bodily transported to the realm of the gods... or what? Perhaps their spirits made the journey, leaving their corpses behind?

Also, it was interesting how, after the Catacylsm, the Kingdom of Ergoth was broken from the mainland and split in two. Do you think DF will ever see entire landmasses reshaped by deities or the consequences of players? Will we see extinct volcanoes and certain events that could make them active once more?

As this post on a gaming forum points out:
Quote from: Mnemnosyne
Another thing to remember is that many of the gods of the realms are ascended mortals. As Karsus proved, when you become a god, you do not automatically gain knowledge and wisdom suited to the task. You simply become a god. And in this setting there are very few gods that are detached. Most of them have their own intentions and plans, and that's the way they're supposed to be. They can be petty, they can be childish, and they can be wrong.
Many of the gods of Forgotten Realms used to be mortals. And they often act like it.

So why is this interesting? Well, in generating the world this would allow for gods come into being during history or to disappear and let these events affect the world accordingly.

What do you mean by "disappear"? Do you mean that they disappeared from history, implying that they must have either become powerless, left this world to go elsewhere, or retired from world affairs for a while? Or, do you mean that they died?

I did come across a Forgotten Realms reference about some deities losing their power to the point of losing their status as true deities. The Seldarine is the elven patheon in FR. After the event known as Spellplague, most in this pantheon became Exarchs:
Quote
Exarchs are often called demigods (but note that exarchs are not gods (as in Demigods) of demipower status (despite the name) or heroes. Many are ascended mortal servants of greater gods, brought up from the world to serve as agents of their divine masters. Many, but not all, attract worshipers of their own, and they have some ability to grant spells, but are more often simply conduits from the mortal world to the attention of the higher gods.

The divine hierarchy of a deity has exarchs at the top, just under the deity, and other divine servitors under them (known as proxies in older editions).

A Chosen is not the same as an exarch, though it is possible for a Chosen to ascend to the rank of exarch.

An exarch can be any Chosen, Demigod, Saint, archangel, or being of power that pledges their service to a particular Deity. The exarch gains no additional powers from this relationship as they are normally of considerable power already to earn the position.

Also, there are references to "Quasi-deities" and "Overdeity", the latter being the ruler or overseer of other deities in a pantheon. I've also heard the term Overdeity used elsewhere, such as in the game Deity Quest.

On the Forgotten Realms wikia, the story of Azuth is interesting. He used to be a mortal. Under "The Second Sundering" heading:
Quote
...They contacted the god Enlil through his Chosen, Kepeshkmolik Dumuzi, and Asmodeus agreed to release Azuth from his body and to resurrect the Untherite god Nanna-Sin as a non-god immortal and in exchange Enlil allowed Asmodeus to consume Nanna-Sin's divine spark to become a god unto himself. In a ritual performed in Djerad Thymar amid the First Tymanther-Unther War, on Hammer 10 of 1487 DR, Ilstan sacrificed his life to allow Azuth become an individual god once more.

The story of Azuth, as well as Mystra and many other Forgotten Realms deities (e.g., Lolth, Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun) seems to support the notion that deites are rarely destroyed forever. Some part of their essence remains. And, often, they get resurrected or reborn in some form, often with a slightly different personality or outlook.

The above article tells of Asmodeus, the archdevil, consuming the divine spark of Nanna-Sin. It sounds like this Nanna-Sin had been slain some time in the past, only his divine spark remaining. Asmodeus, himself, used to be a servant of heaven, before being cast out and becoming a devil.

This, in turn, reminds me of The Elder Scrolls franchise - in particular, the story of how the god Lorkhan was slain, his heart ripped out. But the other gods could not destroy it. Nirn (the TES world) was what remained of his body. Lorkhan disappeared, but his body and heart remained. The Heart of Lorkhan contained part of his essence.

The Dwemer found it and Kagrenac used it's divine powers before they were defeated and the entire race suddenly disappeared from the world. Then the Nevarine's generals used it and became the Tribunal of so-called "living gods." (They were effectively immortal and had some god-like abilities and traits.) But the events of Morrowind sees the Neveraine reborn, eventually destroying the heart and the divine powers it granted, making the Tribual mortal again.

As a Pratchett reader and Black and White player, I'm a huge supporter for the belief = power concept.  It would be great to have the player slay gods by cutting down their followers, or achieve demigod-hood by destroying powerful creatures across the world (the sort of thing that happens in mythology).

I despise the idea of mere mortals slaying gods. The notion seems quite silly to me. Same with the idea of a god dying from lack of followers. After all, how would gods even exist before they created the world, before they created or obtained followers of their own? What even separates a god from mere mortals? By definition, mortals are mortal... susceptible to death. But gods? They're immortal and, by most accounts, eternal.

I could see players erasing a god's power such as eliminating their followers (or, perhaps, destroying their temples or certain artifacts, etc). I could see a god become so ineffectual that they become obscured in (disappear from) history. I can also imagine other gods banishing one of them to a different realm or injuring or imprisoning one, particularly if said god became weak from lack of followers, etc. But destroyed outright?
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hostergaard

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2017, 03:03:28 am »

[Lots of good stuff]

I just want to start with saying thank you for this well written and researched post Thundercraft. While I wont comment on everything rest assured that read it all and have added it to my considerations. Its posts like these that makes going to the forum interesting and and worthwhile and helps develop the discussions.  Keep at it!

Sometimes a deity becomes or can become something different. Sometimes, they can shift into different forms.

That is an interesting aspect and something I think should be part of the myth generator that define the laws of the divine. How and when a god can change into something else. In some worlds gods may be entirely static beings because that is how they where procedural generated. In other there may be avenus of change and yet others transformation of the divine is entirely common.

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of a split in a deity's followers possibly leading to a split in the deity. If possible, I would think this should be unusual and only under certain conditions.

Well, again, it would be a matter of what rules where established during world generation. Maybe in this world gods can split. Maybe they can't. Maybe its caused by a split of followers, maybe it caused by eating ice cream (absurd, but illustrates the point  ;) )

I suppose another possibility may be for a mortal to obtain a particularly powerful magical artifact and/or perform a certain ritual in a certain place. And I seem to recall it being implied in certain fantasy stories or sourcebooks that (an immortal or demigod?) obtaining enough devout followers might eventually lead to becoming a deity. Maybe it would require a combination of all three?

Well, what I am trying to suggest, the essence of my post, is that there should not be a defined way or ways to achieve divinity. Its should be procedurally generated by the myth generator according to what else happened during the myth generation (and of course some values that the player defines before genning the world). Some worlds it will be impossible to obtain divinity, some generated world is will be common place. In some worlds you do it by eating ice cream, in some world its trough extreme and epic feats. Some worlds its given by gods. You never know. And that makes it interesting as the player wont achieve it simply by reading a book like you with necromancy. The player would first have to figure out how to achieve it before achieving it (or sometimes they may unknowingly achieve it, fx if its a world where divinity is imparted by pleasing a god enough).

How about the story of the Kingpriest of Istar and the Cataclysm in the Dragonlance setting?

Also this is a good example, in many D&D settings  as you mention else where it somewhat commonplace for people to become gods, but in Dragonlance its a near cataclysmic event. And I think the magnitidue of effect that a change in divinity status should be procedurally generated and differ from world to world. Or even from method to method used to achieve divinity. Later in the series
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Of course the cataclysm caused by the Kingpriest of Istar was more due to the gods punishing mortals that it being a effect of the act itself. And here we can take into consideration the personality of the gods involved, the overral ethics of the pantheons that define what is good and evil and thus whatever the act is defined in the myth as something that is sacrilegious or not; a forgiving god may not punish, even if its sacrilegious, but if its part of a pantheon that is generally not forgiving said act may still bring about consequences. 

What more is, Raistlin Majere managed to achieve divinity to sheer magical power and knowlegde (and killing Takhisis and taking her place). However, it was not a true divinity as he could not create life like real gods. One could consider procedurally generating the possibility of different classes of gods and what defines them.

What do you mean by "disappear"? Do you mean that they disappeared from history, implying that they must have either become powerless, left this world to go elsewhere, or retired from world affairs for a while? Or, do you mean that they died?

All of them and more. whenever they stop acting as a divine entity in that world for whatever reason. Maybe they died, maybe they are taking a break, maybe they went elsewhere, maybe they became mortal. Maybe they are powerless. Who knows? But the player could find out. But how and when a god "disappear" is not set in stone and would also be defined trough the myth generator.

I despise the idea of mere mortals slaying gods. The notion seems quite silly to me. Same with the idea of a god dying from lack of followers. After all, how would gods even exist before they created the world, before they created or obtained followers of their own? What even separates a god from mere mortals? By definition, mortals are mortal... susceptible to death. But gods? They're immortal and, by most accounts, eternal.

I could see players erasing a god's power such as eliminating their followers (or, perhaps, destroying their temples or certain artifacts, etc). I could see a god become so ineffectual that they become obscured in (disappear from) history. I can also imagine other gods banishing one of them to a different realm or injuring or imprisoning one, particularly if said god became weak from lack of followers, etc. But destroyed outright?

But that is the point; what defines a god should be procedurally generated trough the myth generator. Some worlds the myths allows for god to be killed, some does not. Its all different from world to world. Of course, I agree with you that there is a few things that must be true for a god to be a god no matter what, so some things should stay true from world to world, but there should be parameters so a player can set to what degree they want their divine beings and the laws that governs them a procedurally generated. And also parameters so players can chose which things that absolutely should and should be there. In your case a parameter that decides if a myth can be generated where divine beings can be destroyed/killed in some way.



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LordFreezer

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2017, 06:24:55 am »

Quote
Same with the idea of a god dying from lack of followers. After all, how would gods even exist before they created the world, before they created or obtained followers of their own?

But those gods didn't create the world, Armok did.  They are bound to the rules which Armok sets, and if Armok decrees that a mortal shall be capable of challenging a god, then mortals shall be capable of challenging a god.  Of course I'm not saying it should be something a player could do easily or often, but it would be a nice possibility.

Quote
What even separates a god from mere mortals? By definition, mortals are mortal... susceptible to death. But gods? They're immortal and, by most accounts, eternal.

There are plenty of instances of gods kicking the bucket in mythology.  Sometimes it's permanent, sometimes not.

Quote
I could see players erasing a god's power such as eliminating their followers (or, perhaps, destroying their temples or certain artifacts, etc). I could see a god become so ineffectual that they become obscured in (disappear from) history. I can also imagine other gods banishing one of them to a different realm or injuring or imprisoning one, particularly if said god became weak from lack of followers, etc. But destroyed outright?

If their power is tied to their belief, then yes destroyed outright.  Things don't survive without fuel, they die.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2017, 07:50:55 am »

Quote
Same with the idea of a god dying from lack of followers. After all, how would gods even exist before they created the world, before they created or obtained followers of their own?

But those gods didn't create the world, Armok did.  They are bound to the rules which Armok sets, and if Armok decrees that a mortal shall be capable of challenging a god, then mortals shall be capable of challenging a god.  Of course I'm not saying it should be something a player could do easily or often, but it would be a nice possibility.
Armok is fanlore. Doesn't exist, hopefully never will.
DF has the potential to really be able to create unique fantasy worlds one day. It certainly doesn't need to be tied down to some juvenile blood-lust cult.

And yes, it's the title. But the game is also about to make both dwarves and fortresses optional so titles don't really matter that much.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 07:53:18 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Thundercraft

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2017, 08:26:32 am »

But those gods didn't create the world, Armok did...

Armok is not canon. Even if he was, that would make Armok... a god. But, if gods can not exist without followers, then how did Armok exist before he created the world and the followers to follow him? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? It's a fault in logic which leads to arguing in circles.

Quote
What even separates a god from mere mortals? By definition, mortals are mortal... susceptible to death. But gods? They're immortal and, by most accounts, eternal.

There are plenty of instances of gods kicking the bucket in mythology.  Sometimes it's permanent, sometimes not.

Then, could you mention a few of them, as a way of showing references to back something up?

Anyway, my main argument was against a mortal killing a god. There probably are a few cases in mythology where a demon or another god killed a god. But I honestly believe this to be exceedingly rare.

The only one that I can recall was Norse mythology where Loki tricked some of his pantheon into accidentally killing Baldur, whom everyone loved. It was a special case where everything in the universe was made to swear not to kill Baldur... except for the lowly mistletoe, which they forgot to ask. Baldur's pals were quite fond of shooting arrows at him and such, since they thought he was totally invulnerable. Then, one fateful day, Loki tricked them into using mistletoe...

But, while Baldur died, he was not destroyed. Instead, his soul went to Hel, the Norse realm of the dead.

If their power is tied to their belief, then yes destroyed outright.  Things don't survive without fuel, they die.

Again, can you back this up with examples in mythology or religious texts? That's your rule, though. That's how you believe it should be or how you want them to be. Myself, I am absolutely opposed to the idea.

Gods are not identical to the mortals they created. Their existence is outside of normal reality. They can do amazing things that no mortal can do. And they might not necessarily abide by the laws of physics or the laws of nature. Those rules are for the worlds they create and rule over. There's this huge gulf in existence that separates them from us. Gods can't exist without fuel? They do not need to consume food and drink in order to survive. (Though, there are accounts of them consuming such for pleasure.)

Consider, for a moment, that even the mortals in DF are (at least currently) totally eternal. By that, I mean to point out that intelligent mortals (i.e., members of a civ) can leave behind a ghost when they die. And there is talk in "Future of the Fortress" and elsewhere on how ghosts might be expanded on in the future, such as having ways to resurrect them back to life.

Does it make any sense that mere mortals in DF will continue to exist after physical death and that there will even be ways to bring them back to physical life, yet the gods who rule over them can permanently cease to exist, with no means of bringing them back, ever?

Besides, what hostergaard proposes is that nearly everything about deities should be procedurally generated, including whether or not they can be killed and including whether or not a mortal can become a god and by what methods this can happen. It was also suggested that this be done with settings by which players can exert some control on how worlds are procedurally generated. In that way, we might both get what we want: You can have your DF worlds where gods are killed by mortals or die from lack of followers, and I can have my worlds where that never happens.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:08:53 am by Thundercraft »
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LordFreezer

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2017, 06:02:02 pm »

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DF has the potential to really be able to create unique fantasy worlds one day. It certainly doesn't need to be tied down to some juvenile blood-lust cult.

But converting the heathens takes too long, it's easier to just butcher them.

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Armok is not canon. Even if he was, that would make Armok... a god. But, if gods can not exist without followers, then how did Armok exist before he created the world and the followers to follow him? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? It's a fault in logic which leads to arguing in circles.

Armok is the player, I don't know about you, but I'll be dying one day.  Nor do I need belief to exist, I think.

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Then, could you mention a few of them, as a way of showing references to back something up?

Well apart from Baldur, many Norse gods are set to die during Ragnarok (final).  Osiris killed by Set (temporary).

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Again, can you back this up with examples in mythology or religious texts? That's your rule, though. That's how you believe it should be or how you want them to be. Myself, I am absolutely opposed to the idea.

Gods are not identical to the mortals they created. Their existence is outside of normal reality. They can do amazing things that no mortal can do. And they might not necessarily abide by the laws of physics or the laws of nature. Those rules are for the worlds they create and rule over. There's this huge gulf in existence that separates them from us. Gods can't exist without fuel? They do not need to consume food and drink in order to survive. (Though, there are accounts of them consuming such for pleasure.)

Considering mythologies are generally remnants of old religions, it wouldn't do to have your believers think that if you stop believing in the gods then they will die.  So, no, I don't have any texts to refer to.  The gods wouldn't be like mortals, the reason why they have reality bending powers in this instance is because they are fueled by something that isn't entirely normal.

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Consider, for a moment, that even the mortals in DF are (at least currently) totally eternal. By that, I mean to point out that intelligent mortals (i.e., members of a civ) can leave behind a ghost when they die. And there is talk in "Future of the Fortress" and elsewhere on how ghosts might be expanded on in the future, such as having ways to resurrect them back to life.

Does it make any sense that mere mortals in DF will continue to exist after physical death and that there will even be ways to bring them back to physical life, yet the gods who rule over them can permanently cease to exist, with no means of bringing them back, ever?

I would say that if a god ceases to exist, the ghosts of followers of the gods  should cease as well.  As a side thought, the rules for life after death should be different across gods as well, considering there are many views on what happens after we die.  So depending on the believer and god someone could become a ghost, go to an afterlife, be reincarnated, or possibly just cease to be.

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Besides, what hostergaard proposes is that nearly everything about deities should be procedurally generated, including whether or not they can be killed and including whether or not a mortal can become a god and by what methods this can happen. It was also suggested that this be done with settings by which players can exert some control on how worlds are procedurally generated. In that way, we might both get what we want: You can have your DF worlds where gods are killed by mortals or die from lack of followers, and I can have my worlds where that never happens.

I probably should have been clearer, I want belief = power to be one option, not to the exclusion of all other options.  It's a concept done in other media which I liked, so I'd like to see it in Dwarf Fortress.  Randomly generating a set of gods, but not the circumstances surrounding how they draw power and function would go against the nature of Dwarf Fortress.  I'll amend my first post so noone else gets the wrong idea.
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F4LK5

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Re: What makes a god a god annd how a player can become one
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 08:23:50 pm »


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I want belief = power to be one option -snip-.  It's a concept done in other media which I liked, so I'd like to see it in Dwarf Fortress.

Hallowed are the Ori.
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