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Author Topic: Procedurally Generated Mafia- GAME OVER MAFIA WIN  (Read 75417 times)

Maximum Spin

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2017, 01:35:17 pm »

kingawsume: because the lynch is our main source of information. If we don't lynch we actually lose out on important information that could really help us in the long run.
This is decidedly false; over-eagerness to lynch is a very good sign of mafia alignment. Until the first mafia action you have nothing, no matter how much you believe otherwise; no point wasting two players when you could lose only one.

Incidentally, in keeping with my earlier promise and kingawsume's vote, no lynch.

ETA: also I'm not refusing to talk, but it won't be on anyone's terms.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 01:47:32 pm by Maximum Spin »
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Starver

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1 - Soft Weekend Start
« Reply #91 on: October 23, 2017, 01:49:13 pm »

Starver: What exactly is railroading?
Peer-pressurised actions, in this context/how I'm using it. It can work both ways: "We have to lynch somebody, and if you don't think that, those who do will lynch you!" or "If you insist on randomly lynching someone, let's randomly choose yourself" are two opposing (and differently fallacious) ways of doing things in a railroady way.

I'm not committing, myself, yet, because I haven't even sufficiently satisfied myself about the Generator code's various possibilities (a key landmark I set myself before I started throwing dangerous words around onto people). When I'm back home I can properly check it on a nicer-sized screen. 'Til then, it'd just be scattergunning, with unknown ammo...

Until then, I've restricted myself to some initial comments that I wouldn't feel bad refering to again in the future, answers to questions asked of me/everyone and an aphorism that seemed witty at the time I wrote it.
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kingawsume

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2017, 02:11:26 pm »

kingawsume: because the lynch is our main source of information. If we don't lynch we actually lose out on important information that could really help us in the long run.
What do you take me for, a fool? Lynching Day 1 both casts suspicion upon ones's self and rids the game of a player ridiculously early; Town of Salem may not be the best analogy for forum Mafia, but the concepts apply crossly.
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NJW2000

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2017, 02:16:02 pm »

Salem d1 nolynches eh? Not as weird as one irl mafia game I knew where they started at night. Takes all sorts to make a world, I guess.


Anyway, MaximumSpin, assuming you survive the lynch, how would you feel about me targeting you with an ability that does nothing? Mostly for Shakerag's benefit, he's softclaiming some kind of mass ability gifting ability, and needs to know about someone targeting someone else, apparently.
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Tiruin

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2017, 02:16:58 pm »

kingawsume: because the lynch is our main source of information. If we don't lynch we actually lose out on important information that could really help us in the long run.
This is decidedly false; over-eagerness to lynch is a very good sign of mafia alignment. Until the first mafia action you have nothing, no matter how much you believe otherwise; no point wasting two players when you could lose only one.

ETA: also I'm not refusing to talk, but it won't be on anyone's terms.
And yet you decidedly mention that everyone here controls you in a way?
I've been wondering if there are third-parties but it doesn't seem possible unless NQT decided to be silly that way too :P because it's pretty weird how you commit to not pushing dialogue, going for a no lynch, and then saying...that.

Until the first mafia action, you have everything within the day beforehand to make notes of anyone else. Discarding the day and relying solely on actions does not speak of a well-rounded approach.

And/or more people posting would be nice :V

Maximum Spin: How do you view people even just casually talking to you?
And what's your idea on the odds of a lynch hitting town/scum? v:


kingawsume: because the lynch is our main source of information. If we don't lynch we actually lose out on important information that could really help us in the long run.
What do you take me for, a fool? Lynching Day 1 both casts suspicion upon ones's self and rids the game of a player ridiculously early; Town of Salem may not be the best analogy for forum Mafia, but the concepts apply crossly.
O_o
Wow that's some language. You're applying a template as if it is the only thing that makes sense; I've been wondering if there was some kind of mindset with you or Maximum Spin but it appears in between how you react and the essence of your words.

As if lynching directly makes that kind of expectation upheld. :P

Gaaah PPE twice.
Salem d1 nolynches eh? Not as weird as one irl mafia game I knew where they started at night. Takes all sorts to make a world, I guess.
Wait wha, are Max. S, and King Ossum both only exposed to Town of Salem? :V
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kingawsume

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2017, 02:41:15 pm »

Wait wha, are Max. S, and King Ossum both only exposed to Town of Salrm? :V
Myself, yes. This is my first foray into Forum Mafia.
Max? Armok knows.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #96 on: October 23, 2017, 03:00:24 pm »

Since this came up in my last mafia game I'd like to ask for everyone's opinions on liars. Which is to say,
 if someone softclaims something on day one and then contradicts that in a later claim, how do you treat that person? I will provide my own perspective later.
This is decidedly false; over-eagerness to lynch is a very good sign of mafia alignment. Until the first mafia action you have nothing, no matter how much you believe otherwise; no point wasting two players when you could lose only one.

Incidentally, in keeping with my earlier promise and kingawsume's vote, no lynch.

ETA: also I'm not refusing to talk, but it won't be on anyone's terms.
I think No Lynch is definitely wrong. The reason is because the lynch at least has a chance of hitting a mafia member, and if it misses at least it hits someone suspicious we could end up lynching later anyway. On the other hand if we No Lynch the mafia gets to make more kills, and those always hit town and generally hit better/townier looking players.

Now I do believe that suggesting this is an honest mistake on the part of Maximum Spin and kingawsume rather than a deliberate attempt to gain an outcome favourable for the mafia. However, I find it suspicious that you refused to commit to your idea until someone else expressed their support for it. A desire to not stand out can be a mafia tell. Please explain to me why you were unwilling to cast the first no lynch vote but happy to cast the second.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #97 on: October 23, 2017, 03:36:02 pm »

This is decidedly false; over-eagerness to lynch is a very good sign of mafia alignment. Until the first mafia action you have nothing, no matter how much you believe otherwise; no point wasting two players when you could lose only one.
Elaborate on your viewpoint, please. Surely there are patterns of behavior committed during the day that are suspicious and merit voting? And if we're not going to at least try to find somebody, what's the point of Day 1? Whether or not we hit right, we're going to have much more to talk about day 2 due to day 1 scum hunting.
~~~
Since this came up in my last mafia game I'd like to ask for everyone's opinions on liars. Which is to say,
 if someone softclaims something on day one and then contradicts that in a later claim, how do you treat that person? I will provide my own perspective later.
It depends on the justification they provide. For example, a player could make themselves seem like a strong active role when in fact they poison anyone who kills them, or something like that. Mafia shoot them, get poisoned for their trouble. If they don't provide a justification, however, or scramble to cover up their mistake... that's someone my vote would go on.
~~~
On the bright side, I've decided to invoke Hanlon's Razor. My vote stands, but if cooler heads prevail and even the slightest No Lynch consensus forms, I'll join it.
But like... somebody, I forget who, said a bit earlier, why not just plain vote for No Lynch rather than wait?

And finally... if you prefer to no lynch day 1, why did you vote Tiruin?
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Shakerag

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #98 on: October 23, 2017, 03:54:02 pm »

NJW2000:
Eh. I suppose there's an argument that more powers for town can't be a bad thing. Provided town don't shoot themselves in the foot.

I could target you if you like.
No no no, don't target me.  Tell me who you're targeting.  According to my role, I give abilities to everyone to everyone who isn't targeting a random target of my target.  And now the word target looks funny.

So, basically, you target Player A.  I also target player A.  Then everyone who isn't targeting you... hang on.  I need to clarify this with NQT.  I might not need anyone else's help to make it rain.

NJW2000

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #99 on: October 23, 2017, 03:57:01 pm »

Sounds like you target me, I target a third party, everyone not targeting the third party gets an ability.
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Starver

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #100 on: October 23, 2017, 05:19:18 pm »

On liars, with a doolally system like this then there's legitimate reasons (regardless of alignment) to tell lies to start with to discourage/encourage the wrong type of interactions, then come clean later when the repellent/bait has done its job.

There's also viable reasons to rescind an initial truth to lie later. Including double/triple bluffing. I leave it up to the liars concerned to work out how they do it, to what end and how they deal with any flak.

For my own part, I intend to always speak truth (to whatever degree I feel I can), but a) circumstances may make me drop that idealistic position, b) I might already be lying about that (or mistaken?), and there's really no way I can convince you otherwise, this side of a death-reveal/endgame summary. In fact, I probably stick to (half) truths more as Scum than Town.

So if someone wants to say "sorry, I was lying" at some point, or let themselves be caught in a lie, then on their own head be it. Justify it or be damned, but sometimes it is necessary, to promote either Town or Scum agendas. The act of the lie isn't a problem, so much as the details of it.


(Just about to start unpacking the coded premise behind the game, BTW, once I check other places I might need to post first. Probably won't finish that until tomorrow AM, my time, but it'll at least be stsrted.)
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #101 on: October 23, 2017, 07:21:53 pm »

Anyway, MaximumSpin, assuming you survive the lynch, how would you feel about me targeting you with an ability that does nothing? Mostly for Shakerag's benefit, he's softclaiming some kind of mass ability gifting ability, and needs to know about someone targeting someone else, apparently.
Ain't a problem for me, my ability doesn't recoil or anything. Actually, I might as well straight up inform you that I have a save-target ability. Yeah, you know, the kind of thing you usually want to avoid losing on the first turn!
I think No Lynch is definitely wrong. The reason is because the lynch at least has a chance of hitting a mafia member, and if it misses at least it hits someone suspicious we could end up lynching later anyway. On the other hand if we No Lynch the mafia gets to make more kills, and those always hit town and generally hit better/townier looking players.
this is insane, the chance of hitting a mafia member in the first turn is by definition less than the chance of hitting someone harmless, and "hit[ting] someone suspicious we could end up lynching later anyway" is so obviously a bad thing that I am seriously reconsidering the possibility that you three are Mafia. But I'm still holding to No Lynch unless a strong consensus emerges in agreement, because No Lynch is better than you idiots lynching me, and hopefully people will be willing to bandwagon onto that when there are already two votes.
Quote
Now I do believe that suggesting this is an honest mistake on the part of Maximum Spin and kingawsume rather than a deliberate attempt to gain an outcome favourable for the mafia. However, I find it suspicious that you refused to commit to your idea until someone else expressed their support for it. A desire to not stand out can be a mafia tell. Please explain to me why you were unwilling to cast the first no lynch vote but happy to cast the second.
I did, in fact, commit to my idea from the start. My first sentence in my voting post expressed the idea. However, people are usually too eager to lynch and it can be hard to regain a No Lynch consensus in a game when the first few voters go off half-cocked like this.
This is decidedly false; over-eagerness to lynch is a very good sign of mafia alignment. Until the first mafia action you have nothing, no matter how much you believe otherwise; no point wasting two players when you could lose only one.
Elaborate on your viewpoint, please. Surely there are patterns of behavior committed during the day that are suspicious and merit voting? And if we're not going to at least try to find somebody, what's the point of Day 1? Whether or not we hit right, we're going to have much more to talk about day 2 due to day 1 scum hunting.
No, no there are not, there are only snap judgements, prejudices, and — well, actually, I stop myself, no, there's one thing you can do on Day 1 that's suspicious and merits voting: be too eager to lynch on Day 1. The point of Day 1 is to collect data, but you definitively cannot have adequate data from just Day 1 - unless the mafia are dumb enough to give it to you by being too eager to lynch on Day 1.
Quote
But like... somebody, I forget who, said a bit earlier, why not just plain vote for No Lynch rather than wait?

And finally... if you prefer to no lynch day 1, why did you vote Tiruin?
I don't know, it seems to have worked pretty well as a strategy, I've managed to make a few people engage in extremely suspicious behaviour.

ETA: I suppose it's clear enough that I'm pointedly ignoring Tiruin, but I did want to add that no, I've actually never played Town of Salem, but I have played IRC Mafia with people who are... ah... somewhat better at this.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 07:24:33 pm by Maximum Spin »
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #102 on: October 23, 2017, 07:34:43 pm »

Yeah, you know, the kind of thing you usually want to avoid losing on the first turn!
Unless, of course, it's a mafia player that has it. It would be such a pain if we couldn't lynch a mafia player if you protected them from the lynch.

this is insane, the chance of hitting a mafia member in the first turn is by definition less than the chance of hitting someone harmless...

If we pick at random, sure. But if we hit people who are acting scummy? Much higher chance.

it can be hard to regain a No Lynch consensus in a game when the first few voters go off half-cocked like this.

In RVS, everyone goes off half-cocked. That's the whole point of RVS: generating discussion by scum hunting at random, and hopefully pushing a scum player to accidentally reveal themselves. Ideally, one's RVS votes are refined after being first cast, however.

there's one thing you can do on Day 1 that's suspicious and merits voting: be too eager to lynch on Day 1.

So Leafsnail is scum from your perspective, yes? So I'm scum from your perspective, yes? Why aren't you voting either of us, if you think what we're doing is scummy.

Quote from: FallacyofUrist
And finally... if you prefer to no lynch day 1, why did you vote Tiruin?
I don't know, it seems to have worked pretty well as a strategy, I've managed to make a few people engage in extremely suspicious behaviour.

You managed to get people to vote you by voting Tiruin. Something's not clicking with me there.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #103 on: October 23, 2017, 07:56:24 pm »

Unless, of course, it's a mafia player that has it. It would be such a pain if we couldn't lynch a mafia player if you protected them from the lynch.
Oh, sorry, was unclear, it's a nighttime ability. ie, save from nightmoves, not from lynch.
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kingawsume

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Re: Procedurally Generated Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #104 on: October 23, 2017, 09:28:01 pm »

What's the current vote count, anybody?
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Urist McZombie, werecarp, has taken form! A giant carp twisted into a humanoid form. Its eyes glow blue. Its fins are purple. Now you will know to fear the night.
"Problems with playing in evil biomes"
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