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Author Topic: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?  (Read 4966 times)

Immortal-D

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Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« on: October 18, 2017, 10:09:48 pm »

To have a forum of this size and complexity completely lacking any kind of administrator oversight is unheard of.  On the one hand, I get that these forums are a very niche corner of the web.  On the other hand, have you actually looked at the master forum index?  And that's not counting the dozens of sub-forums.  Besides DF, there are discussions of all other games and life philosophy.  I bet if I searched, I could find a thread dedicated to what you had for dinner this weekend.

I'm sure it is a boon for Toady that he doesn't have to keep tabs on stuff here like you'd expect in any other gaming forum.  Still, I'm curious about just what exactly drives the cohesion and otherwise lack of dickery.  Is a hatred of elves and love of mushrooms really enough?  Could this be the foundation for world peace?  Now if you'll excuse me, the thoughts of food, world peace, and other games makes realize that I have some Slimes to Ranch.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 10:50:01 pm »

Toady moderates the forum overall. Along with the people listed as "moderators" under each sub-forum. Check out Toady's posts, most are 'cleaned up several posts, please play nice' kind of remarks.
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2017, 04:04:39 am »

When the forum needs moderating Toady comes in with a masterwork slade hammer, just to wiggle it at us and we'll behave. He's rather rapid too, ten minutes after I made a spelling mistake that made something seem wrong boom pm'd about it and post deleted. Though our love of mushroom wine likely is the reason we're so well behaved.
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Bearskie

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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2017, 12:09:52 pm »

Eh, I do think we need more moderators. Like you said, its anomalous for a forum this size, and I believe that the quality of moderation suffers when responsibility is stretched thin, irrespective of the moderator's own ability.

Starver

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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2017, 12:29:36 pm »

Ultimately, I think the <redacted> <redacted> are just <redacted> their own <redacted>, and surely every <redacted> should <redacted> <redacted> our <redacted> and <redacted> upon <redacted> <redacted> like <redacted> <redacted> <redacted> do.

It's not a popular opinion, I know, but <redacted> <redacted> <redacted> <redacted> <redacted>-<redacted>, <redacted> <redacted> (<redacted> <redacted>!) <redacted> <redacted><redacted> <redacted> cheese on toast. And you can't tell me otherwise! Especially not in DFGeneral...

Last Edit: a few minutes later by Toady One
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2017, 12:30:49 pm »

Yeah? Well, you can just take your <redacted> and shove it up your <redacted> you <redacted> <redacted>.

Last Edit: Today at some point pm by Toady One
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:37:48 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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Ispil

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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2017, 12:54:30 pm »

Toady moderates the forum overall. Along with the people listed as "moderators" under each sub-forum. Check out Toady's posts, most are 'cleaned up several posts, please play nice' kind of remarks.
Yes, but it would seem that it's certainly not that bad. A couple to a small handful a month. For a forum of this size, that's really rather impressive. If you go far back enough with his posts, you'll find that a good many years ago he was having to do a whole lot more moderation on the forums.
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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2017, 08:44:36 pm »

Part of that is probably because stuff that happens on the forum can affect what goes into the game.

Mermaid farming comes to mind, where even the mere discussion of how to breed merfolk for killing and bonecrafting made Toady nerf the value of merbone in the game. People got the hint fast that if you get out of hand, you might just mess up the game itself in some way. Or even make Toady start rethinking releases and try looking for an outside job. Nobody wants their bad behavior to tank this project.

Other than that, I'd say we as a fandom have mellowed out. There used to be things like raids on other sites, but after a while the fandom grew up and quit that stuff. Heck, there haven't been very many comparison threads trying to elevate us above other games in a while. Last one I saw had negative reactions from the start, culminating in one of us telling Toady and getting it locked. That was overkill, but I think it sent the message that we, as a fandom, don't see ourselves as better than anyone else.

But yeah, Toady's on the ball with what little does crop up.
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Eschar

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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2017, 09:02:43 pm »

I'm still aggravated that he got rid of merbone value.
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KittyTac

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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 09:20:50 pm »

We can still farm mermaids for fun.
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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2017, 11:52:21 pm »

Toady moderates the forum overall. Along with the people listed as "moderators" under each sub-forum. Check out Toady's posts, most are 'cleaned up several posts, please play nice' kind of remarks.
Yes, but it would seem that it's certainly not that bad. A couple to a small handful a month. For a forum of this size, that's really rather impressive. If you go far back enough with his posts, you'll find that a good many years ago he was having to do a whole lot more moderation on the forums.
I'd put that down to the few people who have been banned since then not being around anymore.

I think having just the one admin who drops from orbit like a space marine to dispense justice before returning to his life's work keeps things civil enough. There's no mod drama, because there's no mods. Rather, when drama happens, it ends quickly because a whole section of the thread just disappears without a judgement of who was right or wrong.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2017, 02:40:07 am »

I think it's because Dwarf Fortress fills a small niche, and so people on these forums are generally very much like one another -- we hardly argue and when we do we keep it civil, even in the politics threads, to a significant extent.
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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2017, 04:23:58 am »

To be completely honest with you, there are very few people I'd trust to moderate the site. Toady has shown himself to be fair and firm when he needs to be. I remember a moderation election thread in the lower boards where it just seemed like people were trying to get themselves or their friends moderator'd for the sake of it, and I'd honestly rather keep the status quo than risk having someone who will work with a bias.
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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2017, 07:55:55 am »

Yes it's very unusual but I haven't noticed any urgency. Heck, the subforums (subfori?) I visit have like 3 topics with 5 replies daily, unless some elefant shows up in the ceramics shop (not looking at you "luminousalsofeline" :p). Wouldn't designating a moderator force the poor lad to fake activity? Never touch a running system. Unless Toady felt overwhelmed, that's something entirely else...

Miuramir

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Re: Why do you think Bay12 does not need moderators?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2017, 07:18:55 pm »

In my experience, much of the problems with moderation in other forums has to do with actual or perceived petty power struggles.  If the mods are volunteers, there's a whole power struggle dynamic going on; if the mods are employees, there's a whole "rage against The Man" dynamic going on.  Many forums have both. 

In the case here, Toady is running a forum he personally owns, focused on a game he personally develops, and he's self-employed and answers neither to sponsors nor to publishers.  He has all the power, end of story, no drama. 

Since the game is free and the forum is optional, there's no reason he can't just ban people who are being a problem; it's free of the whole "people who think they are Internet lawyers who are owed something" problem. 

Additionally, with personal moderation, everyone is aware that any time he has to spend moderating the forums is time not spent coding improvements to DF.  The vast majority of folks who are here would consider that a problem. so the sort of "just dicking around to waste the mod's time" stuff you see elsewhere is comparatively rare (thank goodness).  There's some interesting research on social compacts out there; one of the key lessons is that social compacts are more powerful than economic ones, but very fragile.  See this article about day care late fees for one take on one famous study.  In short, i have an uncomfortable suspicion that if the DF forums ever got to the point they were too large and complex for Toady to moderate personally, they would fairly rapidly spiral into more problematic behavior requiring even more (and more controversial) moderation. 

Or, to look at it another way, enlightened dictatorship is extremely efficient.  The "enlightened" part is the hard bit. 
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