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Author Topic: Would df lose it's appeal ...?  (Read 6321 times)

0rion

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2017, 10:53:11 am »

As people already said, graphics are okay and I don't think improving them would bring a lot to the game.

However, as it was pointed out several times, indeed the controls would greatly benefit from a rework. In my opinion the problem can be expressed in one word: consistency. There are several behaviors for menus which differ from a screen to another (move in menus with arrows or +/- sometimes not consistent, stairs that have not the same key depending on if it's carved or it's a building, search function which is sometimes "s", sometimes "q", and many many more…) and every time you enter a new menu you have to figure out how it works.
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Dragonborn

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2017, 12:09:19 pm »

I think the game would lose some appeal if there were modern graphics/animation.  If there existed a game like DF that had Skyrim-level graphics, I'd probably love it, but it seems unlikely that will ever happen.  My fear would be that in order to provide better graphics, some compromise to the procedural generation would be necessary to make it work.  It would be a lot of work to draw an animate all the possible forgotten beast possibilities.  I'm ok with using my imagination to fill in the visual aspects of the game.  I feel the same way about NetHack.  I play that in ASCII mode, because to me it's more straightforward.  Being chased by a purple L in that game is still intense, even though I don't know what a Lich really looks like.  I think DF shares a similar feel, in that regard.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2017, 12:39:50 pm »

Eh I'm find with graphics. There are like 100 easy options for turning them into sprites, so I don't think that's an obstacle.

I would be pleased to see some kind of UI update, though the current one is so ingrained into my mind at this point that I have a hard time imagining anything else.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2017, 04:06:09 pm »

I think the game would lose some appeal if there were modern graphics/animation.  If there existed a game like DF that had Skyrim-level graphics, I'd probably love it, but it seems unlikely that will ever happen.  My fear would be that in order to provide better graphics, some compromise to the procedural generation would be necessary to make it work.  It would be a lot of work to draw an animate all the possible forgotten beast possibilities.  I'm ok with using my imagination to fill in the visual aspects of the game.  I feel the same way about NetHack.  I play that in ASCII mode, because to me it's more straightforward.  Being chased by a purple L in that game is still intense, even though I don't know what a Lich really looks like.  I think DF shares a similar feel, in that regard.
And after all that work, 10 years from now as game development approaches 50% competition, it'd still have outdated Skyrim-level graphics. Oh man, that's so 2017...
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Bearskie

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2017, 08:13:35 pm »

That's a very good point. Not much purpose in making outdated graphics for a game with a development lifespan of 30 years.

Bearskie

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2017, 08:21:44 pm »

Though it's not all bad (jokes about being traumatized into loving the abusive romantic partner aside); having to wait several hours for answers to simple questions certainly sparked me to experiment and test on my own to find the solutions.

Well yeah that's because you ask weird questions like: what is the airspeed velocity of an undead raven in a minecart handling a corner impulse ramp while underwater?

KittyTac

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2017, 08:53:56 pm »

Though it's not all bad (jokes about being traumatized into loving the abusive romantic partner aside); having to wait several hours for answers to simple questions certainly sparked me to experiment and test on my own to find the solutions.

Well yeah that's because you ask weird questions like: what is the airspeed velocity of an undead raven in a minecart handling a corner impulse ramp while underwater?

I wonder why would anyone need that? Maybe undead raven delivery system as defence?
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StarWars1981

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2017, 10:48:41 pm »

Open fire!
What should we use?
The railravens ought to do it for those goblins!
Railwhatnow?

It's only midnight here, why do you ask?

DF would lose the imagination bit if it upgraded and that's the beauty of it. Look at the art forum (there is one still, isn't there?), all the art in this subthreadwhatsitsis Dwarf Mode Discussion, and you can reimagine things as you like.
Also there's no way any image generator could come up with a good image to fit a "Skinless Three-Eyed Firebreathing Gecko", or a "Giant One-Eyed Rabbit". There's just no way, unless you described everything about each beast in the description and spent three decades on JUST the imagery generator to get it to work all the pieces of the description together. Nevermind the rest of the game.
And I'm so used to the current UI even though I haven't used all of it that an upgrade would take awhile to get used to, but a simplification of the control scheme (ie as stated above, using a set of controls valid for EVERY window, etc) might be good for new players. The learning curve depiction still menaces with an obsidian overhang with spikes of player tears.

Obscure forums reference
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Sefarian

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2017, 11:33:58 pm »

It depends. To me, Dwarf Fortress deserves a UI that makes playing the game not require such a drastic learning curve, so I'm in favor of a UI/controls rework. I usually play with tilesets, though I can certainly play with ASCII, and I ultimately think an integrated tileset system ala minecraft's resource packs would be a good fit for DF.

So I guess no, it wouldn't for me. I'd probably look at it favorably, to be honest.

You know, assuming the game gets it's performance issues fixed so I can start playing it again.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2017, 12:42:20 am »

Mm. There's old discussion on specifics, like with: Proof of Concept: Streamlined, mouse-controlled UI.

Certainly, to smaller extent rearranging keys, or shuffling menus is possible, or even whole UI rework from scratch, like with mifki's mobile DF app. I recall Print mode:SHADER offloaded graphics to GPU, for example.

Main issues are huge work required, plus as said, "used to current UI". Thus, userbase for reworked main sidebar menu, for instance, seems like it'd be relatively minimal. Warmist's DF in browser didn't exactly get much attention, for example.
Well yeah that's because you ask weird questions like: what is the airspeed velocity of an undead raven in a minecart handling a corner impulse ramp while underwater?
6395, at 50,148° angle.

...Uh, not that I've ever asked or tested it.
I wonder why would anyone need that? Maybe undead raven delivery system as defence?
Loud Whispers laid waste to HFS with his packs of undead ravens, in what is colloquially called as "releasing foxes in Australia to hunt rabbits".

Quarque

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2017, 12:48:12 am »

I wonder why would anyone need that? Maybe undead raven delivery system as defence?

What a weird question. Why wouldn't someone need undead railravens? You obviously can't have enough of them.
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Bearskie

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2017, 06:37:05 am »

Shhhhh don't give Loud Whispers any funny ideas.

h27kim

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2017, 01:40:06 pm »

Well, the current fans, by and large, seem fine with the state of graphics and UI as is, but it's also a somewhat strange bunch who may not care for the kind of things that more casual gamers are interested in.  If DF had nicer graphics and UI, it will almost certainly draw in different kinds of fans, and with them, probably, a sense of discontent with the actual contents of the game.  That would be a somewhat bigger "problem"--at least as far as the incumbent players are concerned, as, we are, after all, somewhat odd bunch.
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bool1989

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2017, 02:20:44 pm »

I actually perfer the current UI. Yeah it has some problems, but I think it works well enough for what it needs to do.

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Sanctume

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2017, 02:52:53 pm »

One of the viewers of my stream asked a very interesting question:

Would df lose it's appeal if you didn't have to "master" the graphics and the user interface? If it had 10 times the user base and everyone were playing it like civilization or the total war series?

I'd like to hear your answers.

"Graphics" has something to do with "User Interface" (UI), but not all user interface need to utilize graphics.  Text arrangements can suffice for UI. 
That said, graphics uses extended ASCII set to represent game objects.  That is perfectly fine for DF in terms of its function in the game. 
However, there needs to be options to at least change the brightness and size of the graphics because not every player is comfortable in small fonts.

Now as far as the UI, all programs have room for improvement in UI.  Some professionals spend careers just doing UI related coding.  DF in this case, provide good enough UI; and improving UI will definitely increase it's appeal. 

DF players who are familiar with Toady, can probably understand decision or working on areas in DF.  Toady's time is finite and it seems more appealing to me for him to get a game concept to a playable state, over UI re-coding when workarounds can be had.

Project wise, DF is in alpha phase and functional testing takes priority, then data validation, then maybe UI refactoring.
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