Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress  (Read 2727 times)

Azerty

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« on: November 01, 2017, 02:53:31 pm »

Criminal law is a subject which has been much posted about in DF. I hope this thread will provide useful ideas for the implementation of this concept in game.

INTRODUCTION

Crime is going to be a factor to consider for the Crime and Punishment Arc, the Caravan Arc, the Merchant Arc and the , and there's already bandits in the countryside and criminal organisations in the towns.

My proposition would consider the topic of crime in the Fortress, Adventure and Legends modes.

Of course, given the major changes which might happen between now and when this subject might be dealt with, my suggestions might end obsolete.

To see how would work the link between crime and punishment, my threads about traditions might be useful.

CRIMES AND THEIR DEFINITION

Crimes, being acts and omissions a society punishes as being against their values, should depend from its ethics and its values. It is the small subset of traditions a society feels the duty to enforce.

To provide better modability, they should be included in the raws, with tags indicating informations such as the commited act (killing of a sentient, of an animal or of a plant, assault with arms, against a guard), the relevant person, place or item, the ethics and beliefs requirements for a civilization to punish it or any information relevant to the context of the action.

For exemple, let's see the following definition for murder:

Code: [Select]
[CRIME:MURDER_SAME_ENTITY]
[NAME_CRIME:Murder against a compatriot] Name of the crime
[NAME_AUTHOR:murderer:murderers] Name of the authors of the crime
[DEFINITION:The wilful slaying of a sentient being by another, both living under the same dominion]
[KILLING_SENTIENT:A:SAME_ENTITY] A sapient (A) has been killed here, as opposed to attempted murder
[CONFLICT_LEVEL:NO_QUARTER]
[CONFLICT_LEVEL:LETHAL] Indicate the author was wilfully engaged in a conflict level whose outcome would be death; it could be used to separate it from manslaughter/dwarfslaughter/goblinslaughter

In these raws, murder is defined as "the wilful slaying of a sentient being by another, both living under the dame dominion" and the tokens used are KILLING_SENTIENT to indicate it describes the killing of another sentient, with additional tokens to indicate it concerns the killing of a sentient from the same entity (the same thing could be done with wilful killing of a neutral sentient and even of an enemy sentient - but the latter would be the product of really warped ethics!).

A crime can also be defined as being an aggravared form of another, thereby meaning it will receive enhanced punishments during generation (see more below): for exemple, a crime of parricide could be defined, as done below:

Code: [Select]
[CRIME:PARRICIDE]
[NAME_CRIME:Parricide]
[NAME_AUTHOR:parricide:parricides]
[DEFINITION:The willful slaying of an ascendent by one descendent]
[AGGRAVATED_CRIME:MURDER_SAME_ENTITY] Parricide is defined here as an aggravated form of murder
[AGGRAVATED_CRIME:MURDER_NEUTRAL]
[AGGRAVATED_CRIME:MURDER_ENEMY]
[KILLING_SENTIENT:A:ANY]
[IS_RELATED:A:FATHER_MOTHER] A is the father/mother
[IS_RELATED:A:UNCLE_AUNT] ...or an uncle/aunt
[IS_RELATED:A:GRANDPARENT] ...or a grandparent
[CONFLICT_LEVEL:NO_QUARTER]
[CONFLICT_LEVEL:LETHAL]
[BELIEF:FAMILY:20:50:50] It signals the belief FAMILY decides whether this crime should be punished, and the first number signals the minimum value, the second the maximum one and the third the "peak" one

Here, parricide is defined as "the wilful slaying of an ascendent by one descendent" and is an aggravated form of MURDER.

These features allow to include several classes of killings such as petty treason, infanticide, manslaughter and even attempted murder, if needed by adding tags for ethics in the definition of the offense (for exemple, although attempted murder might be seen as an assault, adding the tags for killing might help during the generation - see below).

Several actions could be parts of a crime, such as in the crime of burglary, which is defined here as theft during trespass:

Code: [Select]
[CRIME:BURGLARY]
[NAME_CRIME:Burglary]
[NAME_AUTHOR:burglar:burglars]
[DEFINITION:The breaking and entering of the dwelling of another with the intent to commit theft]
[AGGRAVATED_CRIME:LARCENY]
[AGGRAVATED_CRIME:TRESPASS]
[TRESPASS:A:BUILDING] Trespass against a building or a structure A, as opposed to a naked terrain
[THEFT:B:ANY] Any theft of B committed counts for this crime

Here, burglary is defined as the stealing of any item in the building of another, and is the aggravated offense both for LARCENY (simple theft) and TRESPASS.

Maybe some acts shouldn't be linked to ethics, such as not paying some taxes, worshipping deities whose spheres are at odds with the ones of the civilization or carrying weapons where and/or when banned; however, most of them might eventually be linked to beliefs: a civilization with high emphasis on Decorum wouldn't take kindly on drunks while another in love with Hard Work wouldn't take kindly on slackers; conversely, a civilization which doesn't emphasize much Artwork would no treat the destruction of artifacts as a major crime.

Here's exemples of acts which could be used as the skeleton for crimes:

  • Killing entity members: would depend on KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER. Additional modifiers would specify factors such as the degree of parenty towards the offender or the age of the victim.
  • Theft: would depend on THEFT. Additional modifiers available on the value of the item, the class and the owner, among other factors.
  • Kill tree: would depend on KILL_PLANT. Additional modifiers on the specie of the plant and its location.

With these basic bricks, the programmer (and modders!) will be able to define crimes in the raws, its definition and who will punish it.

During generation, each crime in a civilization will receive a Gravity Score (G.S.), depending of the underlying ethics of the acts, the beliefs and the additional aggravating circumstances, along with its defined position as the aggravated or the mitigated form of another crime.

If civil law and lawsuits end up implemented, it could serve as a good template to implement torts.

THE DIFFERENT PUNISHMENTS FOR LAW-BREAKERS

Similarly to the crimes, the punishments will be defined in the raws and will be defined on the outcome for the convict, the needed ethics and civilization values and any other conditions which could be thought, wich as the place where the punishment is to take place.

The categories might be the following, from least to most severe; additionally, inside each category, the punishments will be ranked by severity:

  • Reprimand: Small-time punishment, without huge consequences against the convict. Exemples: reprimend by the judge, small fines, pillory, some days in a small jail, light corporal punishment and, at the worst, branding.
  • Serious: The punishment shall be significant and could include long-term imprisonment, serious corporal punishment, great fines, forfeiture of estates and mutilation.
  • Exile: The offender will be exiled and forced to go whether out of the settlement, the region or the civilization, or be forced to go to a defined place. This could last for a term or for life. Violations of this order might be punished.
  • Capital: This punishment intends to cause the death of the convict. It might be, or not, accompagned of torture.

For exemple, let's see the below:

Code: [Select]
[PUNISHMENT:PRISON_DUNGEON]
[NAME_PUNISHMENT:Imprisonment in a dungeon] Printed name of the punishment
[ADJ_PUNISHED:imprisoned in a dungeon] How will the convict's sentence will be described, as in "[X] has been sentenced to being imprisoned in a dungeon"
[PUNISHMENT_CLASS:SERIOUS] This is a "serious" punishment
[PLACE_IMPRISONMENT:DUNGEON] The convict will be locked up in a dungeon under a keep
[TERM_PUNISHMENT:6:60] The term will be between six months and five years; without this, the guy will be there for life
[CHAINS:MAYBE] The convict might be chained, depending of the risks of evasions and the cruelty of the jailers
[FOOD:YES] The convict will get food while there
[WATER:YES] The convict will get water while there
[BOOZE:NONE] The convict will get "no" alcohol while there

This is a sentence of imprisonment in a dungeon, and the convict might get between six months and five years.

Civilizations (or rulers!) whose the TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE ethics are accepting of it might enact barbaric methods of punishment, such as the below, which is the modified first exemple:

Code: [Select]
[PUNISHMENT:STARVING_TO_DEATH]
[NAME_PUNISHMENT:Starvation]
[ADJ_PUNISHED:starved to death]
[PLACE_INPRISONMENT:DUNGEON]
[PUNISHMENT_CLASS:CAPITAL] This is a "capital" punishment
[TORTURE] It counts as torture
[CHAINS:YES] The convict will be chained
[FOOD:NONE] The convict will get "no" food while there
[WATER:NONE] The convict will get "no" water while there
[BOOZE:NONE]

Here, the convict will be locked in a dungeon, chained and deprived of food, water and alcohol until he drops dead.

Each punishment will receive, at generation, in each civilization, a score called Severity Score (S.S.) giving how harsh this civilization perceive this punishment to be.

CRIMINAL LAW IN PRACTICE

Sources of law

Before 1400, codification or even written laws were just beginning; it should be reflected in the game.

Criminal laws would be constitued from the following, in the order of priority, from least to most directive:

  • Moral law: it will be the raw list of crimes a civilization feel should be punished but have not been yet affected a precise punishment fitting its G.S. They are potential offenses a civilization feels should be punished but has not yet defined a punishment. It was, for exemple, how parricide as viewed in Rome until Lucius Hostius murdered his parents. The default state for a crime.
  • Customary law: A judiciary authority, when faced to the commission of an offense still in Moral law, "discovered" the offense and gave it a punishment. Exemple: murder in Britain (no law defines murder in Britisn law) and more generally common law offenses
  • Statutory law: Written statutes exists to define the crime and how it is punished. Exemple: civil law jurisdictions.

The generation of criminal law will be studied below.

Criminal procedure

This part will cover the time between the commission of a crime and the end of the execution of the sentence.

Investigation

First, if someone outside of the offenders discovers a crime has been commited, he will reports this to the nearest authority figure of the place, who will gather the items used in the commission of the crime, the testimonies of the witnesses along with any other evidence. As we are before 1400, forensics are really raw and primitive.
If a witness wants to lie to an investigator, he will use his Liar skill against the investigator's Judge of Intent. If detected, he might be deemed as being himself culprit of a crime; else, the testimony might be accepted as true.

After this elements has been gathered into a file, this file will start as a case file and the local authorities (for exemple, any holder of a position with the token LAW_ENFORCEMENT) will try, using Critical Thinker, to determinate the name or the identity of a possible culprit; if they fail, they can find nobody or, worse, accuse an innocent.

A pinpointed suspect might be pursued in the area where the crime has been done, depending of its G.S. (see how GTA and Red Dead Redemption deals with this) and if the accused isn't found beyond a variable time, the investigation is kept "cold" until the suspect is found or new evidence appears.

If the suspect is arrested then he is kept in the nearest dungeon and interrogated to get a confession; depending of TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION, torture can be used to force the suspect to confess.

Trial

He is then sent to a court, where the accused will be tried in two phases, the determinatioon of the guilt and the determination of the sentence.

In Liberal Crime Squad, a game originally from ToadyOne, the suspect was always guilty, and the trial phase was about outsmarting the prosecution; the sentencing was random, only proportional of the number of crimes the prisoner has been found guilty. Here, the person might be innocent, and the first phase will be weighting the evidence against the accused while the second phase will be deeming if the accused deserve leniency or severity.

The Judge might be either a specifically named individual or simply the ruler.

To determinate the guilt, the strength of the file is compared to the score of the accused, who's presumed innocent (real innocents receive more), and both are affected by the Persuader scores, along with eventual bias from the judge ("You are an elf and I hate your kind!"). The accused can provide alibi and attack pieces of evidences entered against him; if he manages to convince the court the evidence is false, it is removed from the records. He can also submit himself to ordeals from a deity with Justice among its spheres, which he can suceed in depending from his luck, his eventual devotion and his guilt; if he wins these, their value is added to his score. In order to provide more drama and !FUN!, the outcome from the determination of guilt might be determinated from a weighted random result from both scores.

If the accused is found guilty then another phase start, and the accused is scored against the accusation, the first gaining points for his youth, his lack of antecedents, time past since the crime and eventual services to the civilization, the second gaining points for the base gravity score of the crime, antecedents from the accused and general bias.

If the prosecution wins then the judge might be less well inclined toward the convicted, even issuing an harsher sentence (i.e. one with a higher S.S.) than the one usually issued, and vice versa.

Execution of the sentence

After the sentencing, the convict is led to a gaol, where he awaits the execution of his sentence: then, depending of the sentence, he will be either sent to the appropriate place of confinement, go to his place of exile, be submitted to corporal punishment or suffer death. If the punishment is a fine and he is unable to pay it, he might end, depending of the ethics of the civilization, enslaved, or he might simply be kept in the gaol; quests might also be imposed.

The convict can escape from prison; in this case he might flee to border areas, go to the nearest bandit camp or flee from the empire. If enough time depending from the G.S. has passed, he will no longer be searched for.

HOW WOULD CRIMINAL LAW BE CREATED?

World gen

During world gen, each civilization will receive a list of the crimes it will punish and then another list of punishments it will dole.
After the acts with attached ethics are scored, each crime will receive its G.S., which depends from the value of the relevant ethics and the beliefs, and each punishment will receive its S.S. too, following the same values, creating the moral law.

The values of the civilization should influe on whether a peculiar crime is made punishable there, or which aggravating or mitigating cases might be envisaged; a civilization with heavy emphasis on family might punish parricide as a specific crime instead of being drown in the rest of the murders, while another with heavy emphasis on artwork might frown on destroying artefacts.

History mode

During history, some offenses still in doctrine will be commited and, depending of whether he got caught, the culprit might be sent to a judge, who will define the offense commited, first starting with the simpler offenses before going to the aggravated or mitigated offenses (for exemple murder will be defined before parricide will be).

Deities whose spheres include Law might also contribute to the constitution of the law.

A judge will assign a punishment, chosen among the ones known by the civilization, to an offense by drawing on its seriousness index and his values: a judge with high levels of FAIRNESS will try to find a punishment which most fit the G.S. of the offense in the civilization while a CRUELTY-driven judge might be more likely to choose torture as punishment of an offense.
Since the punishment, in this case, has been inflicted by the way of a judicial decision, other judges might more easily deviate from the prescribed punishment and can, if done enough, alter the prescribed punishment. For exemple, if a very cruel judge ordered trespassers to have the eyes gouged, other more merciful judges might give softer and softer punishments, such as fines, until this becomes the new standard sentence; on the other hand, more traditionalist judges would enforce the traditional penalty.

It might be printed, in Legends mode, as the following:

Quote
On 125, burglary, defined as the breaking and entering of the dwelling of another with the intent to commit theft, has been declared to be a crime in customary law by Urist EnŰrbemÚng in the Red Arrows.

The law-making authority (ruler or assembly) might also enact laws: for exemple it might be enacted the "Edict on [X] of [X]", with the first for the crime, the family of crime or its authors, and the second for the year. Or course, to have more variety and more variation on the exact name of an statute, other formulations might be provided such as the "[X] Act of [X]", the "Statute on [X] of [X] and the "Law on [X] of [X]." The personal values of the law-making authority might influe on the punishment of an act, such as a law-making authority believiing family is important specifically defining parricide and giving it stricter punishments or a cruel law-making authority doling out more torture.
As this concern written law, judges cannot so easily deviate from the prescribed punishment (should the punishments in written law move, as in customary law, maybe slower? On the hand it might help to simulate the phenomenon on law not being as centralisated as today, but on the other hand it might make things more complex for the player - even if complexity is this game's selling point!).

Law-making authorities might be moved to enact these statutes on the occurence of these crimes, such as a span of murders moving the law-making authority to enact a law against this crime; it could also wish to enact another punishment, whether merciful or harsh. Finally, changes in ethics or beliefs, either from the law-making authority or the civilization, could make laws change.

To simulate codification and make the reading of the law easier, the statutes should be less and less specific, for exemple fusing an "Edict against murder of 87" and an "Edict against parricide of 105" in an "Edict on sapient-killing of 125", culminating in the creation of the "Code Urist EnŰrbemÚng of 195".

It might be printed, in Legends mode, as the following:

Quote
On 125, in the Red Arrows, King Urist EnŰrbemÚng enacted the Edict against Slavery of 125.

Civilizations could learn about additional punishments and, if they fit their ethics and beliefs, introcude them in their criminal law.

Scholarship

Scholars might try to track down the current state of the law, recording the texts of statutes in law books and creating unofficial codes, such as William Blackmore. Their books might have titles such as "The law on [X] in [X]" and "Customary law of [X]."

Some might try to write down the moral law of a civilization, listing crimes this civilization feels should be punished; they would be written as such:

Quote
Since the dawn of the times, civilization [X] considers [X] to be a serious act, worthy of (light/serious) punishment.

The common law could be noted as such:

Quote
On [X], the crime of [X] has been defined by [X] as [X] and is punishable by [X] since [X].

In written law, it would be noted as such:

Quote
The crime of [X] has been defined in the [X] to be punished by [X].

The edicts, statutes and codes would be written as such: after an introduction describing the subject of the document and its author ("The present statute is about [X] and has been enacted by [X] on [X]") and the list each of the relevant crimes, stating their names, description and punishment.

Effects on history

The interaction of some figures with the criminal system might drive history, either as the start of it. An exiled criminal might became adventurer, as OTL, when Greenland was discovered by Leif Eriksson after his friends and he were sentenced to exile.

An innocent injustly punished (or a criminal justly punished!), or his descendents if he was executed, might want to take revenge on the judge who sentenced him.

The leaders of rebellions and insurrections might be punished, and find themselves in a dungeon for the remaining of their short lifes.

Indeed, rebellions might be triggered by the enforcement by occupiers of criminal laws at odds with the sensibilities of the subjects, such as humans rebelling after a lumberjack ended stoned to death by his elven overlords for cutting down a tree. Conversely, mob justice from civilians against criminals they feel aren't punished enough could move other adventurers.

INTERACTION WITH THE PLAYER

Adventure mode

As a result of his actions ,the average adventurer might get involved with the criminal justice system, either getting quests about catching escaped criminals on investigating on crime or being himself put on trial.

Fortress mode

The player might have to deal with nominating Judges and creating a justice system to deal with the crime, either from denizens or foreigners - as for the latter, see below.

CONCLUSION

I hope this post will provide much ideas for this concept.

Of course, given the implementation of criminal law is set to be in ten years, it means some of the present features I used in my suggestions might not even still here.

GOING FURTHER

Polycentrism

The model I presented seems relatively centralisated.

I can see more details on polycentrism, in that the source of law might be broadened to lesser nobles, which could legislate for their territories unless an higher leader overrules it, depÍnding of the crime.

So, for exemple, if a civilization has parricide as a common law offense, only defined by the rulings of judges, the ruler of a subdivision could enact a statute defining parricide and giving the punishment he think worthy.

Of course, laws from an higher leader could overrule those from lower ones, and which crimes could be covered: for exemple, in a civilization, mayors could write laws on theft, dukes laws on murder and the king would take care of treason laws.

In my proposition, judges try crimes under moral law basing themselves on their beliefs; what if they used this as a last resort, first trying to study other relevant laws or the discussions of scholars?

For exemple, trying a case of first impression on burglary, a judge might look at how a neighbouring locality of his civilization punish them and, after this, look at scholars discussing it. Scholars could discuss how, in their civilization, a crime should be punished and if it should be punished ("Treatise on [X]" or "Treatise on the punishment of [X]").

If we mix this with the Schools of philosophy thread, we could even have criminal law philosophical school, whose scholars might debate on the crimes to be punished, how they should be punished and what punishments should be allowed.

Personal and separate laws

Going further, we could see personal laws: until very recently, different peoples were submitted to different laws: in the post-Roman Gaul, the first question judges asked was "what is the law the person is under?" The game already distinguishes between the members of an entity, those neutrals towards it and the enemies, so implementing it might be easy.

Other ways to separate could be the social class (nobles could get different punishments from commoners, like when, in France, nobles used to be beheaded while commoners were hanged), subjugated status (conquired towns could get to keep their laws, or conversely a ruler could impose discriminatory laws on them), or being viewed as very primitive (a tribe of animalmen living in a civilization could get to keep its own laws). Military justice could also be covered, with generals writing laws covering their soldiers. Temples powerful enough might get to write their own laws, applying to their properties and their members.

In the Fortress mode, it could be applied to visitors such as Mercenaries or Guests; a judge versed in their foreign law might try them, and Diplomats might come to ask their denizens coming to your fortress are tried in their own law instead of yours. Diplomats might always be exempt from being tried, althoug if they are victims you will still try the offender.

It might be better than !FUN! caused by the execution of a goblin slave-owning guest.

Legal defenses

If you have read the parts on the definition of crime and the one on trial, you can see the exemple of murder in the former doesn't include any information on who furst stroke, and that the latter says nothing about an accused using a defense other than innocence.

Legal defenses would be ways for a criminal to say that, yes he did it but that it was justified. For exemple, someone accused of murdering someone would say he was only defending himself while another accused of theft could say he was starving.

In this case, there would be two categories of defenses:

  • Universal defenses such as self-defense, insanity and minority, appliable to all crimes.
  • Specific defenses only appliable to select crimes. For exemple hunger could be a defense for theft of food.

If the accused manages to convince the judge any of these defenses applies to him then he is automatically acquitted.

Of course, knowing the players of DF, it might open the way to abuses such as starving oneself before stealing food in order to get feed for free, or trying to find way to provocate someone into striking the first blow so that one may have a legal way to murder someone.

Division of the crimes: felonies and misdemeanors

In order to make less needlessly complexity, crimes could be divided in two or three categories, with treason being a specific category or part of the highest class of crime.

Minor crimes would receive less complicated trials, resolved more quickly, and could have a statute of limitation, in order to not burden persons with trifles such as public drunkeness.

Major crimes would receive the law's full attention.

More variations in procedure

In order to provide more variety, the trial procedures should vary too.

Although the investigation could remain identical across law systems, what happens during the trial should vary.

First, whether torture has been used against the accused should depend of the ethics of the civilization and the jailers' beliefs about Cruelty.

Second, the phase of determination of guiilt could involve either the judge or a jury; ordeals might feature either as the determination of guilt itself (it might lead to !FUN! cases, like when 10% of (?) died from ordeals involving extremely poisonous fruits) or associated to a judge or the jury.

Second, the judge or the jury could determinate the sentence.

Additional scenarii after sentencing

Now, after the sentence has been given, nothing can be done, apart escaping. Letting one's adventurer wait his execution in his cell is not fun.

I hope to provide additional ways to play, even after sentencing.

First, the convict could appeal to an higher court; there, the chances of overthrowing the original verdict might be more difficult. Please note the prosecution could appeal too if the accused is acquitted.

He can also ask for a pardon to the supreme ruler; the hurdles for succeding to this should be very high and depend from the gravity of the crime and the personnality of the candidate. The convict could have to do tasks whose difficulty would depend from the charges, so a traitor might have to fight Angels in their vault to get some divine metal.

Frontier justice and Lynch law

Of course, before 1400, there were some places where the law, especially coming from the center, was weaker, and the denizens did their thing. It might also be places where a minority might live (animalmen in an human empire).

In these places, the locals might apply their laws, whatever might say the supreme ruler, such as elves lynching someone cutting down a tree, although they live under an human civilization.

SEE ALSO

Interesting threads about this subject:

Logged
"Just tell me about the bits with the forest-defending part, the sociopath part is pretty normal dwarf behavior."

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2017, 09:05:09 pm »

Laws&customs update. Coming in 5-6 years!
Logged
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
Did you know that cats that have mysteriously disappeared from home can come back after a few months without warning?

Jacubus

  • Escaped Lunatic
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2017, 03:20:31 pm »

Great suggestion, but we will see something like this in DF2022...
Logged

ShinyandKittens

  • Bay Watcher
  • Armok canít really be much different from Arceus..
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2017, 03:22:34 pm »

Donít forget regicide and homicide!
Logged
Remember, modding this wonderful game has no limits. Add anything you want from actual mice to Xenomorphs to rainbow-colored slimes. Modding is all DF consists of.

- Me

Azerty

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2017, 07:36:28 am »

Laws&customs update. Coming in 5-6 years!

Great suggestion, but we will see something like this in DF2022...

And enough things will have changed on 2022 that most of my suggestion might end as hopelessly obsolete.

I just hoped to give ideas for the implementation of criminal law.

Donít forget regicide and homicide!

As for regicide, it might be handled by a tag related to the killing of position holders, so that goblin law-givers still stay unmolested.
Logged
"Just tell me about the bits with the forest-defending part, the sociopath part is pretty normal dwarf behavior."

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2017, 07:57:05 am »

Laws&customs update. Coming in 5-6 years!

Great suggestion, but we will see something like this in DF2022...

And enough things will have changed on 2022 that most of my suggestion might end as hopelessly obsolete.

I just hoped to give ideas for the implementation of criminal law.

Donít forget regicide and homicide!

As for regicide, it might be handled by a tag related to the killing of position holders, so that goblin law-givers still stay unmolested.
Remember it's going to be procedurally generated. There won't be "dwarf law", "goblin law", etc. Just "law" which will develop for each civ according to the system (like magic will do in mythgen).
Logged

Paxiecrunchle

  • Bay Watcher
  • I'm just here, because actually I don't know*shrug
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2017, 07:06:50 am »

''Here, the convict will be locked in a dungeon, chained and deprived of food, water and alcohol until he drops dead.

Each punishment will receive, at generation, in each civilization, a score called Severity Score (S.S.) giving how harsh this civilization perceive this punishment to be.

CRIMINAL LAW IN PRACTICE

Sources of law

Before 1400, codification or even written laws were just beginning; it should be reflected in the game.

Criminal laws would be constitued from the following, in the order of priority, from least to most directive:

    Moral law: it will be the raw list of crimes a civilization feel should be punished but have not been yet affected a precise punishment fitting its G.S. They are potential offenses a civilization feels should be punished but has not yet defined a punishment. It was, for example, how parricide as viewed in Rome until Lucius Hostius murdered his parents. The default state for a crime.
    Customary law: A judiciary authority, when faced to the commission of an offense still in Moral law, "discovered" the offense and gave it a punishment. Example: murder in Britain (no law defines murder in British law) and more general common law offenses
    Statutory law: Written statutes exist to define the crime and how it is punished. Example: civil law jurisdictions.


The generation of criminal law will be studied below.

Criminal procedure

This part will cover the time between the commission of a crime and the end of the execution of the sentence.

Investigation

First, if someone outside of the offenders discovers a crime has been committed, he will report this to the nearest authority figure of the place''


I have a number of problems with what you have written here, some spelling related others related to a lack of realism or your misundertanding of realword history. Sorry If i sound mean here, my intention is to help you improve, not to make you miserable.
These mistakes and misunderstanding have been highlighted in blue.

First off in your example of torturous capital punishment, the poin of which would seemingly be to make someone suffer and exeedingly slow painful death, you seemed to forget that giveing an individual water in such circumstances and water only would not save them but would prolong their suffering for say perhaps a week or two as people can go far longer without food than they can without water.

It is worth noting that codified laws existed more than 1,000 years before 1400. I have no clue where you got the idea that codification was so new from; here is a law code from 1750 BC or so; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi .

ConstituTed.

With the omission, I think? I do not know why they would need to see a commission in that scenario.

Lastly what if someone who dicovers a crime has slightly diffrent ethics from those who made it a crime will he/she still report it then, what if they actual view the crime by their own stndards as a virtuous thing done, might they perhaps instead iggnore it or cover it up?

FantasticDorf

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2017, 01:16:44 pm »

Regicide is already covered by the treason ethic mostly, its the only ethic goblins care about amongst lots of 'personal matters'

Problem is that they need law enforcers to do it, modding in some local site militia with the responsiblity works out well enough.
Logged

The Ensorceler

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2017, 02:29:42 pm »

I can think of a couple of things not covered yet.

The first is that there is not always a clear distinction between being sentenced to an ordeal and being sentenced to death. There used to be some law that anybody who survived being hanged (legal term for any form of execution, here) three times for the same crime was to be presumed innocent. I think this was so Christians didn't feel like their God was left out of the legal system? Or to give an innocent person a reason to go along with being hanged and not make trouble? Anyone surviving that much killing was presumed to have God on their side, or something. So some sentences could have usually impossible conditions, like an exile could technically be a quest to recover an artifact used to found the civilization, lost to time and maybe thieves.

The second was heavily honor based societies, where the the only punishment (for you, your guild, your family, etc. depending on where honor is percieved to be held) is loss of status proportional to the loss of honor, usually implying the existence of a pretty sorry state of affairs for anyone on the bottom rung of the status ladder. Any punishment would actually come from you/your guild/your family/etc. in order to counteract the loss of honor.

You could even substitute in other things for honor in this system and have functioning societies. Maybe status comes from wealth, and losing wealth is considered a crime. Maybe status comes from how many people/families/guilds/cows/zombies/magic creatures swear fealty to you, which would be pretty neat. It would be a "crime" to fail to protect your vassals from harm, or, depending on the legal mechanisms in place, to let them become unhappy with you or to escape. Maybe status comes from accumulating another kind of relationship, like sworn enemies, where people could formally or informally register as your sworn enemy, giving you status in exchange for there being no punishment if they kill you.

Those status based societies could also include a more normal system of criminal law, too, but punishments would likely be dealt to where your status comes from, even if it isn't enough to change your rank, sometimes turning them over to the victim, sometimes confidcating them, and sometimes destroying them. Some penalties could be a flat amount, regressively punishing lower status people more harshly, while some could be proportionate to the amount of status you have, either again regressively, or just a fraction (ie 1/2 of your money), or progressively, with a system of laws that expects more strict behavior from those at the top.

I dunno, just something to think about. Being awarded three hungry zombies because a necrocrat knocked you over while in a hurry might not seem like a good thing, but that's the kind of legal system I see showing up someday in DF. Internally consistent, but with occasionally very strange or unpleasant outcomes for any and all parties involved.
Logged

Paxiecrunchle

  • Bay Watcher
  • I'm just here, because actually I don't know*shrug
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2017, 03:36:32 pm »

I can think of a couple of things not covered yet.

The first is that there is not always a clear distinction between being sentenced to an ordeal and being sentenced to death. There used to be some law that anybody who survived being hanged (legal term for any form of execution, here) three times for the same crime was to be presumed innocent. I think this was so Christians didn't feel like their God was left out of the legal system? Or to give an innocent person a reason to go along with being hanged and not make trouble? Anyone surviving that much killing was presumed to have God on their side, or something. So some sentences could have usually impossible conditions, like an exile could technically be a quest to recover an artifact used to found the civilization, lost to time and maybe thieves.

The second was heavily honor based societies, where the the only punishment (for you, your guild, your family, etc. depending on where honor is percieved to be held) is loss of status proportional to the loss of honor, usually implying the existence of a pretty sorry state of affairs for anyone on the bottom rung of the status ladder. Any punishment would actually come from you/your guild/your family/etc. in order to counteract the loss of honor.

You could even substitute in other things for honor in this system and have functioning societies. Maybe status comes from wealth, and losing wealth is considered a crime. Maybe status comes from how many people/families/guilds/cows/zombies/magic creatures swear fealty to you, which would be pretty neat. It would be a "crime" to fail to protect your vassals from harm, or, depending on the legal mechanisms in place, to let them become unhappy with you or to escape. Maybe status comes from accumulating another kind of relationship, like sworn enemies, where people could formally or informally register as your sworn enemy, giving you status in exchange for there being no punishment if they kill you.

Those status based societies could also include a more normal system of criminal law, too, but punishments would likely be dealt to where your status comes from, even if it isn't enough to change your rank, sometimes turning them over to the victim, sometimes confidcating them, and sometimes destroying them. Some penalties could be a flat amount, regressively punishing lower status people more harshly, while some could be proportionate to the amount of status you have, either again regressively, or just a fraction (ie 1/2 of your money), or progressively, with a system of laws that expects more strict behavior from those at the top.

I dunno, just something to think about. Being awarded three hungry zombies because a necrocrat knocked you over while in a hurry might not seem like a good thing, but that's the kind of legal system I see showing up someday in DF. Internally consistent, but with occasionally very strange or unpleasant outcomes for any and all parties involved.
Would you midmeadding some of that to my signature ???

The Ensorceler

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2017, 04:46:47 pm »

I would not mind at all, I'm glad you like it.
Logged

Vivalas

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crime and Punishment, or criminal law in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2018, 01:36:20 pm »

I had an idea very similar to this. Procedurally generated law would be even cooler though.

To add on to this I would like to suggest that eventually all facets of government for a civ be generated, with their own effects. For example your civ could have a constitution or magna carta of sorts, and then your fortress could have a charter based on the constitution.

As your fort grows you gain more powers according to the constituion, perhaps even the ability to amend your charter based on a method such as popular vote or mayoral rule. And then these have effects on gameplay, like you could repeal a law preventing seizure of personal property and take everyone's artifacts, or tax everyone for their clothes etc. when economy comes more into play.

Additionally you could maybe ignore law altogether and have a civil war between guards / militia loyal to fortress leadership and those loyal to the charter as well as angry citizen dorfs. And then even if you win you need to keep the outpost liason out of the loop when he arrives (diplomats-visiting-North-Korea-style) or risk intervention from your civ...
Logged


The NSA is always watching you!